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Dependi DE

של Roberto12, 4 בספטמבר 2012

הודעות: 12

שפה: English

Roberto12 (הצגת פרופיל) 4 בספטמבר 2012, 20:35:15

La dependo de la edzo de la edzino.

What does this phrase mean? Who depends on whom? It seems to me that we'd benefit from an alternative preposition to govern the person/thing depended on (al, je) or maybe we could slip an adverb in. It would be a shame to lack precision and be left (ironically) depending on common sense and/or guesswork in these situations.

Evildela (הצגת פרופיל) 4 בספטמבר 2012, 23:28:38

What are you trying to say? If you wrote it in English I could translate it for you to Esperanto because I've never seen a Esperanto sentence use so many 'de'

Chainy (הצגת פרופיל) 5 בספטמבר 2012, 08:14:53

Roberto12:La dependo de la edzo de la edzino.

What does this phrase mean? Who depends on whom? It seems to me that we'd benefit from an alternative preposition to govern the person/thing depended on (al, je) or maybe we could slip an adverb in. It would be a shame to lack precision and be left (ironically) depending on common sense and/or guesswork in these situations.
I suppose the intended meaning is: The husband's dependence on his wife.

But, I think you are right that it would be a lot easier to use 'al' in such a sentence:

"La dependo de la edzo al sia edzino."

- I believe that the usage of 'al' is acceptable in such cases. See the vortaro.net definition of 'al', point 6. "Disde" is also a possibility, but perhaps this is more suitable for other situations? Eg. La polico prenis la ŝtelitan monon for de / disde la rabisto. (PMEG). - a definite movement from the thief, rather than the more figurative idea of 'depending on sb'... That's just an idea - it might well be perfectly fine to use either 'al' or 'disde' in your sentence.

Chainy (הצגת פרופיל) 5 בספטמבר 2012, 08:16:48

黄鸡蛋:Why not use "fare de"?
I don't think 'fare de' would help in this situation. Is 'dependo' done by someone?

darkweasel (הצגת פרופיל) 5 בספטמבר 2012, 08:57:18

Chainy:
黄鸡蛋:Why not use "fare de"?
I don't think 'fare de' would help in this situation. Is 'dependo' done by someone?
fare de links an "aga O-vorto" to its semantic subject, so IMO it can be used here. It just seems unusual because it is mostly used with "transitive" verbs.

Chainy (הצגת פרופיל) 5 בספטמבר 2012, 09:04:50

darkweasel:
Chainy:
黄鸡蛋:Why not use "fare de"?
I don't think 'fare de' would help in this situation. Is 'dependo' done by someone?
fare de links an "aga O-vorto" to its semantic subject, so IMO it can be used here. It just seems unusual because it is mostly used with "transitive" verbs.
You might be right, but the resulting sentence somehow doesn't seem so great, and perhaps still rather confusing:

"La dependo fare de la edzo de la edzino", or perhaps "La dependo de la edzino fare de la edzo" (?!)

I find the form with 'al' (or perhaps 'disde'?) to be clearer and easier on the ear.

sudanglo (הצגת פרופיל) 5 בספטמבר 2012, 10:12:47

The problem here may lie more in the notion of dependi. I'm not entirely convinced that it is the right word for emotional or financial dependence.

Are we talking here of la apogo de la edzo sur la edzino, or la edzina subteno de la edzo.

A very simple solution might be la edza dependo de la edzino.

As often with translation issues, more context may help. La edzo dependas de la edzino por kio?

The classic usage on dependi seems to be as in ĉio dependas de la decido de la komitato. This has a double 'de' but seems to be immediately comprehensible. In such a case, there's always 'far' and 'fare de', but they hardly seem necessary.

Roberto12 (הצגת פרופיל) 5 בספטמבר 2012, 15:02:34

Chainy's got it sussed. (To clarify: the two possibilities I was referring to were: "the dependence of the husband on the wife" and "the dependence, on the husband, of the wife".)

The al and fare de options both look acceptable to me, so I think once again Esperanto just about escapes the clutches of a breakdown.

Regarding the use of the verb dependi, maybe another one could be used, but we should never wriggle out of a legitimate question by changing it and then answering the new one.

sudanglo (הצגת פרופיל) 5 בספטמבר 2012, 20:32:32

But Roberto if dependi is not actually used in Esperanto for this sense of dependence. Then the problem in this specific example doesn't arise.

Have a look through the examples in the Tekstaro (set the reported hits to 1000). Maybe I was wrong, but I got the impression that the overwhelming number of hits did not exemplify that usage.

If the usage is valid then dependo de la edzo de la edzino whilst inelegant perhaps, can really only have one interpretation just as dependas de la decido de la komitato can only have one.

The first 'de' must be the performer of the act.

In la filo de la edzino de mia amiko it has to be the son of the wife, not the son of the friend. Proximity counts.

Roberto12 (הצגת פרופיל) 6 בספטמבר 2012, 10:12:53

Even if it's not well applicable to husbands and wives, it still supports the prepositional relationship of my example, and it's that - the pure grammar - that's at stake.

But as you say, usage and the location of the prepositional phrases count for a lot, and it's through that that the problem can be solved. It's a chip off the "free word order" claim of Esperanto - but we get by ridulo.gif

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