@se: In regards to the criticism of The Global Voices' Esperanto version, I do think that the criticisms are justified. The language (lingvaĵo) they use is bad, the topics banal, it amounts to rubbish, as said by Andreas Kuenzli, whom I regard as the most sensible critic of the current Esperanto movement and its staid traditional methods.

This quest for outside recognition I find tragic and demeaning, as if we have to beg for self-respect. Instead of concentrating our energies toward creativity and productivity, the current tactics we employ involve trying to please others and forcing them to do things our way dogmatically. No wonder we're being ridiculed. We have to realize that people will only see E-o in the positive light it deserves when we can offer something of value to them. We ought to cultivate a culture of productivity and abundance (not that of dogmatism and mendicancy) within the Esperanto community, and that would guarantee us respectability and self-confidence, the prerequisites of soft power.

patrik:Truth be told, I am against moves to woo governments and international organizations (desuprismo), because it has been used as tactic since the early years of the movement and yet the results remain dismal. Also, it would involve lobbying, coercion, corruption, bootlicking, and ultimately, government control over Esperanto. Imagine this: Esperanto courses paid by taxpayer's money! I can't stomach the idea of it! There is a separation of Esperanto and state, and it works well for us. It should remain that way.

But the results of desubismo are even more dismal! Look, most people nowadays learn Esperanto using Internet. Lernu! is the number one website. Now it has 15 registered users on-line globally. Usually it's 10-40 on-line. At most I have seen 59. But nowadays we don't reach even that!

If Esperanto will someday succeed, it came through desuprismo. (It is still very unlikely).

Why? Because soft power will never persuade majority of the population to learn a language. English has the most soft power a language can reasonably have. Still, overwhelming majority of non-native English speakers speak English because of desuprismo. In Europe, English is likely to be taught to you in schools, whether you like it or not. In many places of Africa, English is even a medium of instruction in schools and only official language of country. Global firms and universities around the world increasingly are English-speaking. Statistically, you are going to be richer, if you know English.

I think that the small momentum, which Esperanto had, was destroyed by World War 1, Soviet Union and Nazi-Germany, and World War 2.

Standard Chinese only has a chance, if China starts to use their massive reserves of excess men to colonise Africa. Maybe that's not enough for Standard Chinese language and they would also need to take some of South America and Asia. If they want, they are definitely capable of conquering large parts of the world.

Why can't you stomach the idea of using taxpayers' money to teach Esperanto?

Kara Patrik

WhY UNESCO recommended to teach Esperanto in all the member countries and no one accept it ? Why Singapore made English as the first language without consulting the people ? This goes the same to the Philippines making English and Tagalog as 1st languages without the votes from the people ? Now Singapore has no talents. They import from overseas who are good at English. Soon, the country will be more immigrants than the local born.

It is the mentally of the Esperanto speakers that they think that they have to follow behind the crowd. At least,now the Global Voices would have to translate from Esperanto to other languages on the equal footing. No one is greater than others.

Who is willing to give up the right ? As many still refuse to criticise English like Dr Philipson.

My experience is telling people about the prevention of old age dementia is more effective by telling them the linguistic right.Esperanto should be the second language in every home.

Indonesia has stopped teaching English and get lots of criticism from the English speaking countries particularly USA and UK, why ? You should know better if you have read the report of Notobe. But the Foreign Ministry has made Esperanto a subject for the young diplomats. Is this by force ? Is this good ? By your soft power, it is not good but we applause the change in Indonesia.A poor country like Indonesia should make Esperanto the 2nd language to save cost for education. Not everyone in the country likes English. Hope you have read the 2-2.

The Esperantujo left with few really see the justice to the world but mostly taking Esperanto as a hobby or a stepping stone to be a polyglot. You can see many in the facebook but none would spend half an hour helping the GV including our representative in the NY.

Can we have ASEAN Esperanto news agency ?

patrik:@jismith1989: Well, "soft power" is more on persuasion than on coercion. I don't think it would be that corruptive.

For the benefit of everyone reading this thread, please read this article by the originator of the concept of "soft power": The Benefits of Soft Power (La Avantaĝoj de Molpotenco)

True, but it's still a means of gaining power over people. It might be "nicer" than sending in the tanks, but that's what the concept ultimately amounts to. It's obvious that Esperanto will never achieve world domination or anything approaching it in such a fractious world as ours, despite globalization creating greater links (for both good and ill) between us all, so I don't think we should engage in realpolitik -- let's leave dirty things like that to nationstates. Also, I suspect that soft power ultimately has to be backed up by hard power and hard cash!

Creating culture that people value is one thing, and I completely support that, but creating stuff merely in order to achieve greater power in the world, no, I don't like the sound of that. So long as the Esperanto community has a strong presence (and yes, a vibrant and unique culture), people who are drawn to the language for whatever reasons will come.

I plan to do some writing in Esperanto in the future, whether it's popular or not.

Tamen bondezirojn, Patrik, kaj dankon pro via mesaĝo persona!

patrik:

Truth be told, I am against moves to woo governments and international organizations (desuprismo), because it has been used as tactic since the early years of the movement and yet the results remain dismal. Also, it would involve lobbying, coercion, corruption, bootlicking, and ultimately, government control over Esperanto. Imagine this: Esperanto courses paid by taxpayer's money! I can't stomach the idea of it! There is a separation of Esperanto and state, and it works well for us. It should remain that way.

Yeah, I know, that's why I called them "big ideas". If we could achieve it without all the crap you mentioned then it would be worthwhile, I think. EU/UN all in Esperanto? People might take notice then. But, again, I have no idea to make it happen.

patrik: Instead of making Esperanto versions of this or that, I find it best to create something original in Esperanto, out of which they'll create an English version. That would be a better demonstration of the soft power, that we want to achieve, don't you think?

I could agree with you but it depends on what medium. Music, absolutely. Literature, no way. Video, maybe.

I'm not necessarily saying make an "Esperanto version" per se but have the option there and make it the default. Esperanto first and then your native language. Anyone who is interested in spreading Esperanto has the enthusiasm. So, make it in both languages. (Or, maybe to make it sit better with you - create something awesome in Esperanto and then make an English [or whatever] version. )

My contention is that people are inherently lazy and won't take the effort to take the time to learn something new. So, no matter how great, how awesome, how world changing something is in Esperanto - it won't matter if there isn't another translation available!

patrik: Hmm, Komputeko doesn't have that term yet. "Crowdsourcing" is a portmanteau of "crowd" (amaso/-a) and "outsourcing" (subkontraktado), so maybe it could be "amasa subkontraktado"?

Hmm, I see crowdsource more as crowd/mass-creation not outsourcing.

se:The ease of internet can help to transmit lots of information, the air crash has been identified as 20-30 % of the accidents were due to the misunderstanding of pilots and the traffic tower. But did anyone thus far, using the change.org or other online tools to petition the International Aviation Association to make Esperanto the sole language ? The dead pilots could not raise up from the grave to protest the case but the black box record is the only evident and the speech recorded is always true.

I knew the language barrier was a good amount but not to that extent!

se:Esperantujo has more language lovers instead of action takers. They prefer to translate the pages into the Esperanto from other languages but not taking the iniciative to do something more like the TED x Esperanto. Did TED refuse the organising of Esperanto TED ? Read the rules and regulations. Please don't show me the Esperanto speaker in the Spain TED. TED is a commercial sector now.

...

The worries are can the Esperantujo get that many people, specialists etc to participate in the TED x Esperanto en XXXX in a country ? If not, do it as a region.

Genius! I love this idea. Combining the ideal of TED/TEDx with a focus on spreading Esperanto.

makis:Music, absolutely. Literature, no way. Video, maybe.

What a heck? Really? Have you listened to music in Esperanto? (standard) Esperanto isn't suitable for most genres of music, because of its regularity. If the most talented would make music in all the languages of the world, Esperanto would be among the 20 % least suitable for music (generally).

Why are you against original literature in Esperanto? Original non-fiction would shine in Esperanto. Also more original fiction would expand the perception of Esperanto as a real language. And it is quite possible to write masterpieces in Esperanto.

Fortunately you and I can not decree, what people can do in Esperanto. And even if I'm saying that I have never listened to good Esperanto piece of music, I encourage all to do what they like in Esperanto. Doing something for Esperanto is much better than doing nothing. (of course concentrating our small resources to the most effective things would be better)

Oijos: What a f::*? Really? Have you listened to music in Esperanto? (standard) Esperanto isn't suitable for most genres of music, because of its regularity. If the most talented would make music in all the languages of the world, Esperanto would be among the 20 % least suitable for music (generally).

Yes, I have and I don't hear anything unsuitable at all. Probably because I don't think the the regularity of the language really matters because 1) you can say something about any language why it doesn't fit well with music and 2) if you can express something in it, it's fair game. I may not like the musical style but there isn't anything wrong with it.

To me, it sounds just like I think it would - music with lyrics in Esperanto!

Why are you against original literature in Esperanto? Original non-fiction would shine in Esperanto. Also more original fiction would expand the perception of Esperanto as a real language. And it is quite possible to write masterpieces in Esperanto.

I'm not against original literature in Esperanto. My contention was that no matter how great it is, if there isn't a version in a language you already know, it will never be read except by Esperantistoj.

For example, if Ryokan was never published in English, I would never have know about him or his poetry. If somebody said to me "hey, there is this awesome Japanese poet - Ryokan - you would love. You should learn Japanese so you can read it!" It would never have happened.

On the other hand, Japanese is now on my list to learn because I read the works of Ryokan and other Japanese authors that I enjoyed and think it'll be fun to read them in their original form.

Fortunately you and I can not decree, what people can do in Esperanto. And even if I'm saying that I have never listened to good Esperanto piece of music, I encourage all to do what they like in Esperanto. Doing something for Esperanto is much better than doing nothing. (of course concentrating our small resources to the most effective things would be better)

Yeah, I agree with you there.

So, what do you think we should do? In isolation or together?

OK, makis.

Have you ever listened to good Esperanto music?

What should we do? That has been dealt with thoroughly many times on many places over the decades. Here is Strategia laborplano de UEA: 2013-2017

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