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'Kiel multe' or 'kiom da'

af Demian, 17. okt. 2012

Meddelelser: 10

Sprog: English

Demian (Vise profilen) 17. okt. 2012 13.59.21

Hi!

I just came across this sentence: "Kiel multajn elektronikajn librojn vi eldonis?"

Seems to me a word-by-word translation from English. Anyway, I am curious to know, if 'kiel multe' is a correct replacement for 'kiom da'.

Thank you for reading!

Fenris_kcf (Vise profilen) 17. okt. 2012 14.03.38

For asking about the amount "kiom da" is the way to go. But the form "kiel multa" also exists IMO, but stands for some kind of exclamation: "kiel multe da mono vi havas!" - "oh, you got so much money!", but maybe i'm mislead here due to my mother tounge.

Demian (Vise profilen) 17. okt. 2012 15.32.25

Fenris_kcf:"kiel multe da mono vi havas!" - "oh, you got so much money!"
I will read it the same.

But again, it could be mother tongue effect in my case too. In Punjabi we say "ਤੇਰੇ ਕੋਲ ਇਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਪੈਸਾ ਹੈ!" (tērē kol iṁhā paisā hai!)

tērē kol - ĉe vi
iṁhā - kiom / tiom
paisā - mono
hai - estas

darkweasel (Vise profilen) 17. okt. 2012 16.00.32

IMO kiel multaj can also be used as a question, it’s just less common than kiom da - probably because the latter is shorter.

creedelambard (Vise profilen) 17. okt. 2012 16.48.47

I read "Kiel multajn elektronikajn librojn vi eldonis?" as something like "How did you publish a lot of electronic books?" - not pertaining to quantity, but to method. Large dedicated staff? Outsourcing to a North Korean sweatshop? An infinite number of monkeys? The word order is a little odd from an anglaparolanta point of view, but not overly so.

RiotNrrd (Vise profilen) 17. okt. 2012 19.20.45

creedelambard:I read "Kiel multajn elektronikajn librojn vi eldonis?" as something like "How did you publish a lot of electronic books?" - not pertaining to quantity, but to method. Large dedicated staff? Outsourcing to a North Korean sweatshop? An infinite number of monkeys? The word order is a little odd from an anglaparolanta point of view, but not overly so.
Sometimes it helps native english speakers (or, at least, me) to translate a troublesome Esperanto sentence by reshuffling it mentally into the standard English SVO word order. In this case, that would be "Kiel vi eldonis multajn elektronikajn librojn?". That shift in word order doesn't change the sentence's meaning even slightly, but does clearly show that the sentence isn't about the number of books, but about the their publishing. "How have you published (so) many electronic books?"*

---------------
* I just threw the "so" in there to make it sound more natural in English; to me, it sounds slightly awkward without it. I don't believe it's actually implied by the Esperanto, which is really saying, when fully spelled out "You have published many books. How did you do that?" The "so" gives the sentence a slightly different character. But it's also shorter, so I'll take some liberties as a translator. ridulo.gif

darkweasel (Vise profilen) 17. okt. 2012 19.44.45

According to your logic, kiel longe vi jam parolas Esperanton? means "how have you spoken Esperanto already for a long time?". senkulpa.gif senkulpa.gif senkulpa.gif

sudanglo (Vise profilen) 17. okt. 2012 21.14.03

Kiom da is 'how many' or 'how much' for objects that can be counted or measured.

Kiom da personoj ĉestis? - kiom da mono vi havas?.

'How much do you love mi?' however would be Kiel multe vi amas min?

Kiel multaj opinias would be 'as many people think'

Kiel multajn elektronikajn librojn vi eldonis? strikes me as an error or at least unclear.

But replace the question mark with an exclamation mark and it then works as a comment.

Kiel multajn amikojn vi havas ĉe Facebook!

Kiel multe da is something else. Estas stranga afero, kiel multe da Esperantistoj ne bone regas la lingvon.

tommjames (Vise profilen) 17. okt. 2012 21.35.51

sudanglo:'How much do you love mi?' however would be Kiel multe vi amas min?
Hmm, I don't see any problem with using "kiom" instead of "kiel multe" for a phrase like that. Compare this with this.

Kiel multe seems to me to stress the "muchness". I did a search in Tekstaro and the only hit is kiel multe mi amis mian edzinon! in the Krestomatio. Kiom mi amas mian edzinon! might have the same effect, but "multe" seems to beef it up a bit.

RiotNrrd (Vise profilen) 18. okt. 2012 00.43.28

darkweasel:According to your logic, kiel longe vi jam parolas Esperanton? means "how have you spoken Esperanto already for a long time?".
I only said it was *sometimes helpful*, for beginners - particularly native English speaking beginners for whom SVO is a solidly engrained pattern - in the case of sentences in which the given word order is presenting an obstacle to understanding due to its non-SVO nature.

It is certainly in no way a general rule to be slavishly followed. More just an occasional strategy for comprehension in dubious circumstances.

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