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Tio vs Tiu

از sandman85, 9 اکتبر 2007

پست‌ها: 57

زبان: English

sandman85 (نمایش مشخصات) 9 اکتبر 2007،‏ 18:40:08

I recall a lesson here on lernu! somewhere that firmly described the difference between 'tio' and 'tiu'. I remember that one is when describing a known object, and the other unknown, but unfortunately I can't remember which is which. I'm doing some application translations right now, so I don't want to make any more mistakes!

(Currently I'm using 'tio' as a known object (this, that) and 'tiu' as unknown (that one, that over there); is this correct or not?)

mnlg (نمایش مشخصات) 9 اکتبر 2007،‏ 18:49:00

Tio points to a concept, a thing, an abstract object. Tiu points to an individual or a member of a set. You can think of "tiu" as of a "that one" in most cases.

Tio estas, kion mi vidis.
That's what I saw. (e.g., an event, something happening, a vision).

Tiu estas, kiun mi vidis.
That one is the one I saw (a person, an element of a set).

Tio estas bona.
That's good. (whatever it is that was mentioned earlier).

Tiu estas bona.
That one is good. (compared to the others).

Stefano B (نمایش مشخصات) 9 اکتبر 2007،‏ 22:04:20

Thanks, mnlg. That was very helpful for me, too.

RiotNrrd (نمایش مشخصات) 10 اکتبر 2007،‏ 1:02:50

mnlg:Tio estas bona.
That's good. (whatever it is that was mentioned earlier).
This particular example actually still confuses me. I learned that "tio" refers to an unknown thing (object, concept, whatever). However, in this example, because the thing (whatever it is) HAS already been mentioned, doesn't that make it known? In which case, wouldn't "tiu" be the correct choice?

mnlg (نمایش مشخصات) 10 اکتبر 2007،‏ 6:31:10

RiotNrrd:This particular example actually still confuses me. I learned that "tio" refers to an unknown thing
This always baffles me, when I hear someone phrasing it like that, because tio (just like tiu, tiam, tiel, etc) is a determinative, it is used to individuate an element and therefore that element must be known, or at least, imaginable, shaped in your mind; tiam = in that moment (the moment I can pinpoint/spot); tial = for that reason (which has been expressed or mentioned); tiom = that quantity (represented by something we can all see or imagine); and so on, and so forth.

If you really want something unknown, not determinable, then you have to use "io". "io estas bona" = something is good (I don't know or can't/won't say what); "iu estas bona" = someone (some element belonging to a definite set) is good (I don't know or I can't/won't say which one). etc.

Consider as a final example:

Mi konsentas al tio, kion vi diris.
I agree with what you said.

And of course I am supposed to know what you said. ridulo.gif

I think the confusion comes to the fact that "tio" is used in a heterogeneous context. If you are asked "kion vi volas?", you might reply with basically anything (libron, glaciaĵon, foton, pli da tempo, ktp); but if you are asked "kiun vi volas?", the idea is that there is a set you and your interrogator agreed on (books, ice cream flavors, cars, sodas, etc). Of course, in both cases the object is not known, otherwise there wouldn't be the need of a question.

I hope I didn't confuse you further ridulo.gif

erinja (نمایش مشخصات) 10 اکتبر 2007،‏ 22:27:14

Just to add to mnlg's excellent description - I think of it as being general vs. specific, rather than unknown vs. known. Tio is for generalities, tiu for things that are more specific.

RiotNrrd (نمایش مشخصات) 11 اکتبر 2007،‏ 1:05:05

erinja:I think of it as being general vs. specific, rather than unknown vs. known. Tio is for generalities, tiu for things that are more specific.
Ah, this makes sense to me. I've been puzzling over when to use "tio" since I first learned it. I've probably been using "tiu" more often (and in inappropriate situations) than I probably should have.

Thanks to both of you for your clarifications!

oren (نمایش مشخصات) 11 اکتبر 2007،‏ 2:11:49

At risk of overkill...

my way of remembering how to use -u vs -o endings is that kiu = which (thing)? and kio = what (thing)? ekzemple:

kiu etaĝo? ĉi tiu etaĝo. (which floor? this floor)

note, each floor has a unique 'identity' per se. so you also use it for uloj.

kio??? mia pantalonoj brulas, tio estas kio. (What??? my pants are burning. that is what.)

note, 'kio,' as someone already posted, is like, could be anything, any-THING meaning an object, cirucmstance, idea etc.

nur miaj pensetoj =)

rev_peterson (نمایش مشخصات) 8 اکتبر 2014،‏ 12:58:50

Seven years later this is still very useful. Thank you so much!!

eshapard (نمایش مشخصات) 21 مهٔ 2015،‏ 8:30:47

I've been struggling with this. It seems many descriptions of tio vs tiu are vague, ambiguous, or down-right inaccurate.

After hashing it out with some forum members, I think we've come up with a good set of rules. I've moved them to this post from page 3 and elaborated them in hopes of helping people who have just come to this thread looking for answers.

[list=1]
Tiu: If used with a noun in the sentence, use tiu. Compare: 'Mi volas tiun hundon / I want that dog' with 'Mi volas tion. / I want that.'
Exception: If not used with a noun in the sentence, but context makes it clear that you are talking about one particular member of a set or class, use tiu. Tiu means 'that one' when used by itself in a sentence. e.g. In English, you might say 'That one! (Tiu!)' when asked which puppy you want.
Tio: If not used with a noun (used by itself) in the sentence and context does not make it clear that you are talking about one particular member of a set or class, use tio. Compare: 'Mi volas tion. / I want that.' with 'Mi volas tiun hundon. / I want that dog.'
Don't use tio to refer to a person; only tiu.[/list]

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