orthohawk:I was told once by a linguistics professor (PhD in Linguistics; how he managed that without knowing the following fact is beyond me) that Esperanto couldn't be a "real" language because "real" languages don't put the plural marker before the case marker.

Hey! That makes Volapük "real"!

Seriously, though. What passes for "scholarship" in the humanities these days is just ...

Whatever.

Bruso:

orthohawk:I was told once by a linguistics professor (PhD in Linguistics; how he managed that without knowing the following fact is beyond me) that Esperanto couldn't be a "real" language because "real" languages don't put the plural marker before the case marker.

Hey! That makes Volapük "real"!

Seriously, though. What passes for "scholarship" in the humanities these days is just ...

Whatever.

No, it's the other way around (but there are exception, have a look at the Old Armenian instrumental), but I - as a linguist - must say that I give a ... on those so called universals.
There is one, according to which indefinite pronouns are at least as long or longer than interrogatives. That's not the case in Esperanto (io - kio), but who cares?! The language is fine, and it would be fine if it would not comply to other "universals", too.

Bruso:
Then there are hieraŭ, hodiaŭ, morgaŭ. In Volapük these are ädelo, adelo, odelo. "Del" is the word for "day", the -o is the adverbial ending, and the ä-, a-, and o- prefixes indicate past, present and future - the same prefixes used on verbs. Quite regular.

Yes, Volapük binon jönik, but ä-/a-/o- are not like Esperanto -is/-as/-os, there is still i- (pluperfect), e- (perfect), u- (future perfect). So why is it ädelo and not *edelo? I think by convention, but convention means less regularity, so the distance to hieraŭ is a bit smaller.

Hyperboreus:I think some asymmetries add flavour, but I was also a bit astonished to find the pronouns less symmetrical than the rest.

Interrogative, relative and demonstrative pronouns only distinguish animate/inanimate: kiu/kio, tiu/kio
Personal pronouns distinguish sexus, but only in 3rd person and only in singular: li ŝi ĝi
2nd person personal pronouns do not distinguish numerus: vi
Plural forms have nothing to do with singular forms: mi -> ni, vi -> vi, li ŝi ĝi -> ili

Hypothetically this could have been arranged more symmetrically, e.g.:
mu
vu
ĝu, ĝo
muj
vuj
ĝuj, ĝoj

-u for animate, -o for inanimate like with the rest of the pronouns. No "mo, vo, moj, voj" as inanimate objects rarely speak or are spoken to (*). If you want to emphazise "female" use the -in- as always: minu, vinu, ĝinu, etc...

But I don't see there an issue, it is fine as it is now.

--
(*) Unless I speak e.g. to my compiler: "Ĉu vo neniam komprenas kion mu volas." Or when HAL spoke: "Mo bedaŭras, Dave, mo ne povos fari tion."

I like this, but I always feel uncomfortable with "we" being the plural of "I". For me (and others) this feels like an exclusive "we", so you'd have to add an inclusive 1st plural pronoun, too (there is one in later Volapük, ods), breaking the whole symmetry.

Another problem: How do you derive possessive pronouns from this kind of pronominal system? You would need a proper suffix.

Remark: The pronouns in -o are not inanimate, they're not marked for this distinction at all, but they are used for inanimates as these lack a proper pronoun.

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Anyhow, I like both the exclusive/inclusive distinction (it's useful, much more than a number distinction in the 2nd person) and for systematic reasons a possessive suffix.
As a closed class the pronouns don't need a special marker, I would even prefer if the were more distinct than now (like in Ido).
So, if I were to remake the pronominal system of E-o (keep calm, I won't ), it would like that:

sg.
me
vu (tu = 'ci' )
li (human), ĝi (rest)

pl.
mej (exclusive), nuj (inclusive)
vu
zi

(you see the reagularities, at the same time all forms are maximally distinct and - except for ĝi - a posteriori)

Possessive with a suffix, maybe -n-.

If you would like to discuss the further with me, I'd like to switch to E-o, I don't feel comfortable in English.

Forigite

Forigite

Hyperboreus:

hebda999:Personal pronouns are the most frequently used words in any language

????? How about pro-drop languages... How about languages that do not have personal pronouns...

I think your thesis is mostly made out of thin air.

Hello, touchy Mr Professor Linguist. I think that you don't like me, which I don't care in turn. You know well what I meant and you are rude... as always.

Forigite

"orthohawk skribis:"I was told once by a linguistics professor (PhD in Linguistics; how he managed that without knowing the following fact is beyond me) that Esperanto couldn't be a "real" language because "real" languages don't put the plural marker before the case marker.""

So German is not a real language?

Apologies for going off topic.
Does anyone know if there is/has been any attempt to develop a "Regular English", as in English with irregularities removed?