Поруке: 119
Језик: English
Vilius (Погледати профил) 26. новембар 2012. 15.47.46
Bemused:The difficulty that people have comes from the mistaken idea that there is some correlation between sound and letter.There is strong relation between sounds and letters, even in English. Otherwise you would not be able to read anything without knowing the spelling of that exact combination of letters. For example, give some non-existent word, like "foobarton", to several native English speakers to read aloud. I'm pretty sure their pronunciation would not differ too much. This is because they all have some idea about how certain combinations of letters should be read aloud.
The problem foreigners have with English is that the relation is not as straightforward, as in other languages, that's it.
Uridium (Погледати профил) 27. новембар 2012. 01.44.52
I am 29 years old. I picked up my first book on learning Esperanto when I was 18. I still can't speak this stupid language.Wow, are you kidding????
There are 2 only possibilites:
1-you are a troll, a very bad troll anyway, because your tentative to upset us doesnt' work like you wished, sorry; the time that you wasted for inscribe you and write this post should be used in other more interesting ways;
2-you have a very very low Q.I. because is not humanly possible after 9 years have not learned or talked at a very basic level some of Esperanto!!!
Im not a genius or very smart person but hey, after only 5 month here and just 30 minutes at day doing courses, reads stories and learn new vocabules and some of grammatic, i succesly passed the Esperanto-low level exam and i can speak, read and undestand much of this language.
Why do you think that Esperanto is also called "the universal language"?
Because its a language simple to learn for all people of all over the world, of different culture or education; or maybe that Zamenhof dont think on that when he build it?
If you are really not able after so long time Esperanto, your wasted your time (at least its free so you don't wasted money, right
?) and like other members suggesting, its better that you invest your time in something that you really like and possibly able to do.Bonŝancon kaj adiaŭ(it means Good luck and farewell")
ceigered (Погледати профил) 27. новембар 2012. 05.12.25
Mustelvulpo:French is easier to learn than Esperanto? That's the first time I've ever heard that. To me it would be a bit like saying Calculus is easier to learn than simple addition but maybe that's the case for some people.Tio estas eble mi
/ That's maybe me (Just thought I'd log back in once in a long while and write something).
Each language has its quirks, I guess just don't take any language too seriously. If you don't want to learn it anymore, don't force yourself, if you do want to learn it but are seriously frustrated by it, just relax and don't bother exerting energy on it.
amelia12 (Погледати профил) 27. новембар 2012. 10.19.25
goliath07:I honestly think that is childish though, whether you seriously meant it or not. Books are going to be difficult because they´re meant for people whose language abilities are good enough. And as for liberal sentence structure, well that´s because grammar makes it clear enough so you can be creative with it. Which is good for people who speak languages where sentence structure is free.
I am very capable in Esperanto. I can read and speak it. I was using hyperbole in the first post because I was frustrated reading a book. My frustration stems from inspite of my knowledge, still be unable to determine what is said half of the time because of liberal word order and construction. But thank you, for your condescending, half legible post. Appreciated.
Teapot (Погледати профил) 27. новембар 2012. 11.45.09
tl;dr
Don't pretend you're a victim here.
And I wholeheartedly agree with amelia12. This thread is a demonstration of immaturity on your part.
Don't pretend you're a victim here.
goliath07:All of my posts from this thread were deleted? Apparently Lernu doesn't adhere to a 1st amendment of any kind. It's not like I violated a TOS. LAme.This makes no sense. Have you read the First Amendment? It does not say you have the right to say whatever you want wherever you want. Unless Lernu has, without my knowledge, become the US government and made a law abridging free speech, you're being ridiculous. You're using someone else's website which they have been kind enough to let you use for free and so they are free to moderate as they desire.
And I wholeheartedly agree with amelia12. This thread is a demonstration of immaturity on your part.
erinja (Погледати профил) 27. новембар 2012. 11.50.34
goliath has already admitted to being a troll. I would have deleted this entire thread that he created, except that it generated some good discussion that had nothing to do with his trolling. Instead, I only deleted the more egregious of his troll postings, so as to let the honest users continue their conversation.
Since he already admitted to being a troll, any post of his that looks even a tiny bit troll-like is getting deleted. Normally accounts of trolls are deleted entirely but since his trolling was so lamely ineffective, he can keep his account. But I'm keeping a close eye on anything he posts. He could still lose his account if he keeps it up.
I suggest not engaging in anything provocative he says, and if he posts something that looks a bit trollish, report it as spam.
Since he already admitted to being a troll, any post of his that looks even a tiny bit troll-like is getting deleted. Normally accounts of trolls are deleted entirely but since his trolling was so lamely ineffective, he can keep his account. But I'm keeping a close eye on anything he posts. He could still lose his account if he keeps it up.
I suggest not engaging in anything provocative he says, and if he posts something that looks a bit trollish, report it as spam.
keithwood57 (Погледати профил) 27. новембар 2012. 12.26.01
Hi
(I had to look up the word 'troll' as it applies to the internet – us wrinklies thank you Wikipedia...)
If I may contribute my two pen'orth to this discussion, I started to learn Esperanto in 1980 (with frequent breaks, some very long) but would assuredly not pass the basic exam. However, I do accept that as being my own fault entirely.
I can read it reasonably well. I manage to correspond occasionally in a very simple way with overseas users of the language.
I would like to improve, but as I get older I find it increasingly difficult.
I was encouraged by the advice of an earlier post, (though, sorry, can’t relocate it to quote exactly) which said, relax and don’t worry about actual achievement, just keep going as best you can.
I shall keep going and I know that as long as I do I shall improve.
However, I feel Esperantists do themselves and the movement no favours when the notion of the simplicity of Esperanto is emphasised at the expense of strict accuracy. Esperanto is undoubtedly easier than any national language (and VERY much easier than some). But it is NOT easy. It may well be easy to learn the basic, ‘the cat sits on the mat’ ‘I have a book in my hand’ use of the language, but that does not mean that it will not take a lot of effort to acquire a good working ability in it.
I think that Esperantists should be a lot more up-front about the work most normal, ungifted people need to acquire fluency.
Best wishes, and thank you for the website
Keith (Kiĉjo)
(I had to look up the word 'troll' as it applies to the internet – us wrinklies thank you Wikipedia...)
If I may contribute my two pen'orth to this discussion, I started to learn Esperanto in 1980 (with frequent breaks, some very long) but would assuredly not pass the basic exam. However, I do accept that as being my own fault entirely.
I can read it reasonably well. I manage to correspond occasionally in a very simple way with overseas users of the language.
I would like to improve, but as I get older I find it increasingly difficult.
I was encouraged by the advice of an earlier post, (though, sorry, can’t relocate it to quote exactly) which said, relax and don’t worry about actual achievement, just keep going as best you can.
I shall keep going and I know that as long as I do I shall improve.
However, I feel Esperantists do themselves and the movement no favours when the notion of the simplicity of Esperanto is emphasised at the expense of strict accuracy. Esperanto is undoubtedly easier than any national language (and VERY much easier than some). But it is NOT easy. It may well be easy to learn the basic, ‘the cat sits on the mat’ ‘I have a book in my hand’ use of the language, but that does not mean that it will not take a lot of effort to acquire a good working ability in it.
I think that Esperantists should be a lot more up-front about the work most normal, ungifted people need to acquire fluency.
Best wishes, and thank you for the website
Keith (Kiĉjo)
sudanglo (Погледати профил) 27. новембар 2012. 14.00.07
There is perhaps a serious point in all this discussion.
Esperanto differs from the national languages in the extent to which it has a preferred way of expressing something and in the case of national languages that may be easy to pick up from native speakers or films or literature. (Incidentally, French often uses the same turn of phrase as one we use in English).
Speaking Esperanto however requires a certain degree of creativity or inventiveness, once you get beyond the basics.
So if your preferred learning style is by rote, or imitation of model forms, you might prefer learning a national language. Esperanto requires you to think a little harder.
Esperanto differs from the national languages in the extent to which it has a preferred way of expressing something and in the case of national languages that may be easy to pick up from native speakers or films or literature. (Incidentally, French often uses the same turn of phrase as one we use in English).
Speaking Esperanto however requires a certain degree of creativity or inventiveness, once you get beyond the basics.
So if your preferred learning style is by rote, or imitation of model forms, you might prefer learning a national language. Esperanto requires you to think a little harder.
T0dd (Погледати профил) 27. новембар 2012. 16.26.47
keithwood57:Me too. And it's just fine that way. There really is nothing at stake, except our own enjoyment of what we're doing. We're not saving the world.
I shall keep going and I know that as long as I do I shall improve.
I think that Esperantists should be a lot more up-front about the work most normal, ungifted people need to acquire fluency.I think most of us agree completely. Some, but not all, of the exaggerated claims of how easy Esperanto is come from people who have just experienced the period of rapid transition from knowing nothing to basic expressive ability. Compared to many other languages, this part of Esperanto's learning curve is indeed short.
In automotive terms, you can go from zero to, say, 30 mph, very quickly in Esperanto, as you lock in most of the common grammatical structures, sentences forms, and vocabulary. To get from 30 to 60 or 70 mph, it starts to look more like other languages. In particular, it takes work to acquire less and less commonly encountered vocabulary items, precisely because they are less commonly encountered. Those words are needed for real fluency, but it's not so easy to lock them into memory.
Many years ago, when I did the NASK course in San Francisco, we had daily quizzes on sections of La Praktika Bildvortaro de Esperanto, which is a pictorial dictionary of all kinds of everyday stuff. This was hard work, and I confess I've since forgotten many of these words. For one thing, unless you actually hang out with Esperanto speakers, you won't find yourself groping for these words that often. But then when you do hang out with them, you can find yourself embarrassingly tongue-tied, because you just don't know what a lot of the everyday things around you are called. On web sites like this one, we tend more to discuss ideas, languages, politics, and so forth, so we don't need to think of the word for "potato peeler" or "rear-view mirror" very often.
Vocabulary is a big part of fluency in any language, and even though Esperanto lets you build words, you don't want to be struggling to do that several times per sentence.
RiotNrrd (Погледати профил) 27. новембар 2012. 20.15.27
The problem with using hyperbole is that unless you've made it very, very clear that it IS hyperbole, people are apt to take you at your word.
Your original post didn't sound over-the-top at all. There was no reason to believe that you were being anything but upfront about yourself. There was no hint at all that it was hyperbole. Sure, if we knew you personally, we'd likely realize what you were doing - "goliath? Oh, no, he's certainly no quitter. He must just be joshing you a little." But, of course, we DON'T know you, so we're more likely to simply accept what you are saying about yourself.
So, my bit of advice to you is: don't use hyperbole until you actually know how to use it, as your use of it in this instance is one big example of fail. Simply making extreme statements and expecting anyone (especially people who don't know you) to understand that you don't really mean what you are saying is a little too much to expect.
How about, instead of saying wildly exaggerated things that you don't really mean, you simply say intelligently moderated things that you do mean? You might find a more receptive audience that is less inclined to think of you as a troll.
Your original post didn't sound over-the-top at all. There was no reason to believe that you were being anything but upfront about yourself. There was no hint at all that it was hyperbole. Sure, if we knew you personally, we'd likely realize what you were doing - "goliath? Oh, no, he's certainly no quitter. He must just be joshing you a little." But, of course, we DON'T know you, so we're more likely to simply accept what you are saying about yourself.
So, my bit of advice to you is: don't use hyperbole until you actually know how to use it, as your use of it in this instance is one big example of fail. Simply making extreme statements and expecting anyone (especially people who don't know you) to understand that you don't really mean what you are saying is a little too much to expect.
How about, instead of saying wildly exaggerated things that you don't really mean, you simply say intelligently moderated things that you do mean? You might find a more receptive audience that is less inclined to think of you as a troll.