Messaggi: 11
Lingua: English
sudanglo (Mostra il profilo) 14 dicembre 2012 11:47:33
The thrust of the author's position was that this arose from a desire to differentiate your group from some other, though obviously sometimes language differentiation arises from group isolation.
The author was much taken with the idea that the area of the world (Papua New Guinea) where there is the greatest density of different languages (there's a different language every few kilometres) is one in which the isolation theory cannot yield a satisfactory explanation .
Now it is obvious that the identity function of language is significant (just look at the efforts of the Welsh) but what does this imply for Esperanto.
What identity is being asserted by the Esperantists? How can a global language assert your membership of a group? Is it homo sapiens versus the Klingons?
The author also maintains In the long run it is inevitable that a single language will replace all others. In evolutionary terms when otherwise equally good solutions to a problem compete, one of them tends to win out. And he thinks the winner will be English.
To comment on this send your reaction to letters@newscientist.com
Demian (Mostra il profilo) 14 dicembre 2012 12:26:07
sudanglo:There was a long article on this topic in a recent edition of the New Scientist (8th Dec., page 38).Is there a way you can read the entire article online? Of course without a subscription. (US $175.00 translate into INR* 175 x 50 = 8750! o_O)
INR = Indian National Rupee
burungmarah (Mostra il profilo) 14 dicembre 2012 13:36:12
In the Medieval era, Latin separated the scholars from the masses. I've tried learning Latin online but it's so freaking hard with all those differences in inflections and declensions between word classes.
In 17th-19th century Europe, French was spoken by non-French royals and aristocrats (les élites) across the continent, again separating them from the masses.
Today, English is the international language of this and that, and this time the masses do not want to be separated - but alas in most places all they manage are pidgins, and undeniably some give up their own mother tongues for the gold that's in English, only to end up speaking some English-based creole. Reminds me of the local adage in my country: You fail to get what you're chasing after, while you lose what you already have in your pouch.
Demian (Mostra il profilo) 14 dicembre 2012 14:07:26
burungmarah:Today, English is the international language of this and that, and this time the masses do not want to be separated...Do you think people didn't want to learn French in Tolstoy's Russia? Or do you think people don't spend hours and hours cramming French in Francophone Africa?
No, my friend, English is not an exception. The society has always been like this. If the clout of the US were to wane, it will only a matter of time before you see queues to learn Chinese or whatever comes next.
It won't happen overnight. This country used Persian for over half-a-millennium, even after it had been supplanted by Arabic in Iran. Back then people were willing to pay a huge amount to Maulvis to teach their children Persian, the official language of India before the British came.
It has nothing to do with some inherent qualities of a language. I read something beautiful in these forums. Though I don't remember the exact words, it goes something like this: "When I have money in my pockets, everyone will speak my language."
efilzeo (Mostra il profilo) 14 dicembre 2012 14:35:58
T0dd (Mostra il profilo) 14 dicembre 2012 15:38:36
sudanglo:At the moment, Esperanto is bound to a kind of countercultural identity, which is why it's often referred to as a "movement." It's a very mixed bag, of course, but Esperantists see a problem, the "language problem", where few other people do, and they see a solution to it that even fewer other people see. For some, it's a kind of social justice issue, for others it's simple nonconformism.
Now it is obvious that the identity function of language is significant (just look at the efforts of the Welsh) but what does this imply for Esperanto.
What identity is being asserted by the Esperantists? How can a global language assert your membership of a group? Is it homo sapiens versus the Klingons?
If Esperanto were to become "accepted", some would lose interest in it and turn to some other language.
The author also maintains In the long run it is inevitable that a single language will replace all others. In evolutionary terms when otherwise equally good solutions to a problem compete, one of them tends to win out. And he thinks the winner will be English.I wonder what he thinks the problem is, to which the languages of the world are competing solutions.
Rugxdoma (Mostra il profilo) 14 dicembre 2012 21:39:03
sudanglo:There was a long article on this topic in a recent edition of the New Scientist (8th Dec., page 38).I have not read the article, but judging from your account I find the idea highly reasonable. As I understand the author's argument, languages tend to differentiate because of a will of their speakers to use their language skill to find new variants. When they as individuals invent more and more new words and distinctions, they will sooner or later come to a point where most speakers are not willing to follow them any longer. If some continue to follow them, then a new idiom is born.
...
The author also maintains In the long run it is inevitable that a single language will replace all others. In evolutionary terms when otherwise equally good solutions to a problem compete, one of them tends to win out.
But the last quotation does't seem to fit into the argument. I would like to turn the argument around: If one "solution" tends to seem simple, then the speakers will come up with competing alternatives. While people struggle with "the" English all over the word, the idiom actually spoken in Australia and the USA is extremely hard for us to understand. (And if we happen to learn from Holliwood films, some other variant will be ununderstandable.)
How can Esperanto avoid this splitting tendency? My suggestion is discipline, based on conciousness that the idea is that Esperanto shall be easy to learn and use.
T0dd (Mostra il profilo) 15 dicembre 2012 00:42:24
Rugxdoma:sudanglo:Esperanto exists for a specific purpose, which makes it different from most other languages. People who learn English or Japanese don't care about the "fate" of those languages, but people who learn Esperanto have an interest in it remaining intact. This interest has trumped every reform project and keeps it from splitting.
How can Esperanto avoid this splitting tendency? My suggestion is discipline, based on conciousness that the idea is that Esperanto shall be easy to learn and use.
Cisksje (Mostra il profilo) 15 dicembre 2012 12:31:37
Rugxdoma:I don't think we have much to worry about regarding splitting this side of la fina venko. In a world where every educated person knows Esperanto and uses it in international communication, presumably the same people would be aware of the metalinguistic issues. In such a world there could be issues where there are great numbers of denaskuloj whose families have forsaken their native languages (I am now in the realm of fururistic fiction, and I know it!) perhaps for reasons of mixed race, nationalities or even a new idealism that regards national languages as redundant. Perhaps young denaskuloj would want some kind of linguistic identifier which marks their group off from others. In such a situation we might end up with a "classical Esperanto" for international communication, and "vernacular Esperantos" in various localities. Whatever happens, I doubt whether I shall live long enough to contribute to the debate when a solution is required.
How can Esperanto avoid this splitting tendency? My suggestion is discipline, based on conciousness that the idea is that Esperanto shall be easy to learn and use.
antoniomoya (Mostra il profilo) 15 dicembre 2012 13:24:21
Demian:I read something beautiful in these forums. Though I don't remember the exact words, it goes something like this: "When I have money in my pockets, everyone will speak my language.""Kiam mi havas monon miapoŝe, ĉiuj parolas al mi mialingve."
I think you are absolutely right, Demian.
Amike.