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od uživatele sudanglo ze dne 23. prosince 2012

Příspěvky: 15

Jazyk: English

T0dd (Ukázat profil) 29. prosince 2012 13:06:10

I think the use of EN is dubious, because the intended meaning is non-spatial and has nothing to do with containment or inclusion. These are the main meanings of the preposition, making it's use in "resulted in" idiomatic. I think JE is more appropriate.

tommjames (Ukázat profil) 29. prosince 2012 13:44:06

Both "rezulti en sukceso" and "rezulti je sukceso" are dubious to my ears. The issue seems to me not so much the choice of preposition for this type of usage, but the fact that this usage changes the meaning of "rezulti" to something it is not generally used for. PIV's definition has:

PIV:rezulti (ntr) Esti la logika, natura, fakta sekvo de: el tiu principo rezultas, ke […]; alia aranĝo eble rezultos el via diskutado Z; por la malsanulo efektive nenio rezultis el tioZ; kio rezultus, se mi agadus kun ili pli malbone?Z; el tio rezultis, ke mi rezignis pri la afero.
Following that, if you say "mia ŝerco rezultis je sukceso" then you're saying the joke resulted from the success. Obviously not what you intended to say.

I guess in the above case it's probably clear what the intended meaning was, but that might not be the case in other phrases of this type.

Tempodivalse (Ukázat profil) 29. prosince 2012 21:24:33

Following that, if you say "mia ŝerco rezultis je sukceso" then you're saying the joke resulted from the success. Obviously not what you intended to say.
Excellent point, I completely overlooked this difficulty. If "rezulti" is an intransitive verb, then we should not put the preposition before the thing that is resulting, since that reverses the meaning of the sentence. (Another one of those idioms-in-disguise.)

Actually, I rather think "El mia serĉo rezultis sukceso" is the clearest way to put it. "Mia serĉo rezultigis sukceson" works too.

sudanglo (Ukázat profil) 31. prosince 2012 11:23:35

Following that, if you say "mia ŝerco rezultis je sukceso" then you're saying the joke resulted from the success. Obviously not what you intended to say.
On the face of it this seems a powerful argument, Tom.

However both 'de' and 'el' are well established for this meaning.

tommjames (Ukázat profil) 31. prosince 2012 13:42:21

sudanglo:However both 'de' and 'el' are well established for this meaning.
True. But again, it's not so much a matter of the preposition used but the meaning of the verb 'rezulti'. I don't really see how using 'je' makes it acceptable to use a verb for some other meaning.

I guess it's possible that the meaning of 'rezulti' will change over time to include causation, making 'rezultigi' redundant and leading to 'rezulti je' or even 'rezulti en' becoming normative forms. But until the dictionaries reflect that I'll be sticking with the traditional usage.

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