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iĝi vs fariĝi?

viết bởi AnthonyLondon, Ngày 23 tháng 12 năm 2012

Tin nhắn: 13

Nội dung: English

AnthonyLondon (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 13:25:39 Ngày 23 tháng 12 năm 2012

What's the difference between iĝi vs fariĝi? Both seem to mean "to become"?

For example, I've just seen these 2 sentences on 2 different websites:

Mi intencas iĝi inĝeniero (seen here)
Mi volas fariĝi instruisto (seen here)

The meaning is exactly the same so why no simply say iĝi instead of fariĝi?

EldanarLambetur (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 13:57:46 Ngày 23 tháng 12 năm 2012

I once made a blog post attempting to make sense of this! I'm still blogging so if you need clarifications on that post, just drop a comment! ridulo.gif

http://adventuresinesperanto.wordpress.com/2012/04...

scorpjke (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 13:58:17 Ngày 23 tháng 12 năm 2012

AnthonyLondon:What's the difference between iĝi vs fariĝi? Both seem to mean "to become"?
Yes, they are the same.

AnthonyLondon:For example, I've just seen these 2 sentences on 2 different websites:

Mi intencas iĝi inĝeniero (seen here)
Mi volas fariĝi instruisto (seen here)

The meaning is exactly the same so why no simply say iĝi instead of fariĝi?
Because people are silly - they want more synonyms. Well, actually that's not the case, I guess. But I personally don't like that the word "fari" besides the usual meaning "to do" also has meaning which is the same to "igi", which is a result of influence of Russian, by the way - the Russian word "сделать" also has these exact two meanings.

AnthonyLondon (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 14:11:25 Ngày 23 tháng 12 năm 2012

Thanks Andy. Your blog post makes perfect sense. It's also interesting to know that
it wasn’t always the done thing to use affixes as words in their own right
I didn't know that but it explains many similar things I suppose.

sudanglo (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 15:49:42 Ngày 23 tháng 12 năm 2012

Iĝi does seem to be more common in later texts. But maybe there is still a subtle difference between that and fariĝi.

If you can think of a use where there is no farado, you may have a case where iĝi is better than fariĝi.

la haŭto de la knabino iĝis tute blanka (no agent, no intervention)

La lango de la knabino fariĝis tute purpura pro la konsumo de riba suko

AnthonyLondon (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 16:25:54 Ngày 23 tháng 12 năm 2012

you may have a case where iĝi is better than fariĝi.
What do you mean by "better"? This seems perfectly fine to me:
La lango de la knabino iĝis tute purpura pro la konsumo de riba suko.

RiotNrrd (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 16:41:44 Ngày 23 tháng 12 năm 2012

AnthonyLondon:
you may have a case where iĝi is better than fariĝi.
What do you mean by "better"?
I think sudanglo is suggesting that "fariĝi" is more descriptive of a change of state with an agency behind it, whereas "iĝi" describes a change of state with no agency.

So, if a house color is changed, that's a case of "fariĝi" (because someone acted to change it). But if the sky changes from blue to black* as the day turns to night, that is more of an "iĝi" event (it just happens without anyone having to do anything).

I have to admit, however, that I personally use "iĝi" for both (mainly because it's shorter), and don't use "fariĝi" at all. But I may start, now that I've thought about it a bit.

-------------------------------
* Or, more accurately lately, grey to black.

tommjames (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 18:13:27 Ngày 23 tháng 12 năm 2012

On the point about agency, Reta Vortaro claims that to be the difference between 'iĝi' and 'fariĝi', but rimarks that it "ne estas ĉiam severe obeata". I would have gone a bit further and said it is "preskaŭ neniam obeata", myself.

AnthonyLondon (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 20:01:36 Ngày 23 tháng 12 năm 2012

Thanks Tom. Am I wrong in saying that 'iĝi' is progressively replacing 'fariĝi'? In a way, it would make sense. Languages tend to get simpler overtime (in English learnt is now replaced by learned, etc).

sudanglo (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 20:59:59 Ngày 23 tháng 12 năm 2012

My Compact OED gives 'learnt' as British usage - though it acknowledges both forms.

On the other hand, of course, the professor is a very learned fellow

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