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Newspeak alive and well

de sudanglo, 14 ianuarie 2013

Contribuții/Mesaje: 25

Limbă: English

sudanglo (Arată profil) 14 ianuarie 2013, 10:08:28

According to a Financial Times journalist, some company executive wishing to put a favourable slant on the catastrophic fall in the profits of his company reported that 'profits degrew by X%'.

Now if only the executive had spoken Esperanto he could have said that his company profits 'malkreskis', but this wouldn't have so effectively lessened the impact of the unfortunate results.

It is an interesting linguistic question as to why 'degrew' rides on the favourable import of 'grew' but 'malkreski' doesn't profit from the positive value of 'kreski'.

Incidentally, it may not be true, but I have heard the story that George Orwell got the idea of Newspeak from Esperanto. Apparently he went to stay with with aunt in France (in order to improve his French) but had to leave in disgust as the aunt was shacked up with another Esperantist and the couple insisted on speaking Esperanto around the house.

Demian (Arată profil) 14 ianuarie 2013, 11:21:12

sudanglo:
It is an interesting linguistic question as to why 'degrew' rides on the favourable import of 'grew' but 'malkreski' doesn't profit from the positive value of 'kreski'.
It could be that 'de-grew' isn't that common as are 'fall' and 'decline.'

I think 'degrew' were to become more widespread, it would lose its euphemistic feeling. That explains why 'malkreski' doesn't strike as odd to an Esperanto-speaker but 'de-grew' does to a speaker of English.

Compare La mava lingvo to La malbona lingvo. At least to me, 'mava' isn't as strong as 'malbona.' It could be because 'mava' is uncommon and sounds rather pedantic thus distant; whereas 'malbona' carries a tone of familiarity.

sudanglo (Arată profil) 14 ianuarie 2013, 13:04:13

Actually it is an old argument in Esperantujo that malmola (for example) doesn't sound hard, because it includes mola (soft).

If it were just a question of familiarity then Newspeak attempts at thought manipulation would become self-defeating. After a while, the replacement of 'bad' with 'ungood' would lose any force of making something sound less bad.

Which sounds more distant? Foraj landoj or malproksimaj landoj? You can't use the familiarity argument here.

lobo_xx (Arată profil) 14 ianuarie 2013, 15:57:38

Hello everybody,

just wanted to add that this kind of euphemism also is very commonly used in german - in case of "decline" it would be a "Minuswachstum". Kind of stupid, I often get mad about this; so to say doubleplusnotgood. And by the way: That has nothing to do with positive thinking - you know that kind of discussion about a glass of water being half full or half empty - or referring to a bad situation as having "still a lot of space for improvement", although it looks a little bit like it.

On the other hand that kind of false-positive usage can be an attempt of avoiding to offend someone (not so good instead of bad); and also vice versa (not bad instead of good). Actually strange.

Greetings

lobo

Mustelvulpo (Arată profil) 14 ianuarie 2013, 21:49:25

lobo_xx:On the other hand that kind of false-positive usage can be an attempt of avoiding to offend someone (not so good instead of bad); and also vice versa (not bad instead of good). Actually strange.
I could understand the executive saying something like "we didn't do as well as we had hoped" rather than being more blunt-"we lost a ton of money." But his use of a non-word such as "degrew" (probably coined on the spot) is so jarring that I would have had a hard time following the next few sentences of his report. In trying to minimize the problem, he ends up looking silly. I have heard "negative profits" used in the same circumstances. Equally silly and an oxymoron, but at least those are real words.

I suppose euphemism is used in all languages, including Esperanto, and always will be but it should be done with legitimate words.

Tempodivalse (Arată profil) 14 ianuarie 2013, 23:20:33

It is an interesting linguistic question as to why 'degrew' rides on the favourable import of 'grew' but 'malkreski' doesn't profit from the positive value of 'kreski'.
"Degrew"? Multe da ridoj! ridulo.gif ridulo.gif Alan Greenspan could not have come up with a better word.

Most likely the difficulty is that in Esperanto the negation prefix is far more common than in English, (which generally employs a totally different root to convey opposites). As a result, one's ear is de-sensitized to its use. So saying "not good" in English, instead of "poor" or "bad", fails to give the same negativity as "malbona" or "nebona" in Esperanto because "good" has an inflexible meaning, whereas "bona" changes based on what sort of affixes are being used.

In this regard EO is very transparent, which often makes it difficult to come up with convincing euphemisms. (Recall a recent conversation where we were trying to think up a nice way to say "euthanise" ).

Bruso (Arată profil) 14 ianuarie 2013, 23:24:55

sudanglo:
Incidentally, it may not be true, but I have heard the story that George Orwell got the idea of Newspeak from Esperanto. Apparently he went to stay with with aunt in France (in order to improve his French) but had to leave in disgust as the aunt was shacked up with another Esperantist and the couple insisted on speaking Esperanto around the house.
Actually, most sources credit (?) Basic English rather than Esperanto as the inspiration for Newspeak:

http://georgeorwellnovels.com/books/newspeak/
The genesis of Newspeak can be found in the constructed language Basic English, which Orwell promoted from 1942 to 1944 before emphatically rejecting it in his essay Politics and the English Language
(As for anyone who would say "degrew" ... he's a doubleplusungood duckspeaker.)

Timtim (Arată profil) 21 ianuarie 2013, 17:56:03

sudanglo:Apparently he went to stay with with aunt in France (in order to improve his French) but had to leave in disgust as the aunt was shacked up with another Esperantist and the couple insisted on speaking Esperanto around the house.
Not just any Esperantist either, Terry. The man was Eugene Adam, otherwise known as Lanti and the founder of Sennacia Asocio Tutmonda. I've never understood this attitude among some Esperantists of imposing the language on non-speakers with whom they could otherwise communicate and if Orwell left with a bad taste in the mouth then I would be hard pushed to say I disagreed with him.

erinja (Arată profil) 21 ianuarie 2013, 22:53:15

I think that this sort of Esperanto is fortunately the exception rather than the rule. More than once I've met up with an Esperanto speaker and their spouse, and the conversation has been in English, to allow the spouse to feel comfortable.

On the other hand I know a number of Esperanto speakers who always seem to be bringing their non-Esperantist spouse to Esperanto events, which due to the events' size (a large gathering, not a couple of people having dinner), have no realistic hope of anything being in English, other than a few private conversations. I always wonder whether the spouse truly wanted to come (and if so, why), because it doesn't sound like fun at all to me!

sudanglo (Arată profil) 22 ianuarie 2013, 10:39:28

At the British Congress at Ramsgate in May we will be providing 'Oficialaj Krokodiloj' for those wishing to practise their English. French, Flemish etc, and of course for the guidance of non-Esperanto-speaking visitors. These volunteers will be identifiable by special badges showing the language they are prepared to converse in.

As far as I know this is a completely novel service, never before tried at Esperanto Congresses.

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