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Why no correction area?

від Aaron94, 17 січня 2013 р.

Повідомлення: 12

Мова: English

Aaron94 (Переглянути профіль) 17 січня 2013 р. 01:19:22

Why isn't there a a place to write whatever you feel like sharing and have other people correct the grammar and such? I know there's the "question" section, but I would feel weird posting a couple paragraphs about something expecting people to read it and tell if it's right. So why isn't there a section for doing that so the forum doesn't get spammed with everyone's journal entries? I'm sure not everybody wants to spend their time correcting people's work, but just don't go to that section if you're not in the mood for that.

I'm just a little frustrated that on the language exchange websites that are setup like that, they don't seem to have many Esperantists that are skilled enough to correct me.

erinja (Переглянути профіль) 17 січня 2013 р. 01:34:02

You can certainly do it in the questions section, or else in the English section if you want hints and comments in English.

People have done it here before and gotten help, it's something that the forum users would definitely help you with.

RiotNrrd (Переглянути профіль) 17 січня 2013 р. 03:17:01

What you are describing doing is exactly what the forums are for. Some very long and productive discussions have been centered around those types of posts.

Don't feel weird about posting text and asking for correction. People here are *happy* to offer their (sometimes competing) thoughts on ways to improve compositions. And you will certainly not be the first to have done so.

Aaron94 (Переглянути профіль) 17 січня 2013 р. 21:32:28

I posted this at one at italki And so far nobody has corrected it. Maybe it's perfect. lango.gif

Mi provis lerni je alia retpaĝo, sed ne estis multaj Esperantistoj tie. Nun, mi estas ĉi tie. Mi ŝategas ĉi tiun lingvon. Mi havas 18 jarojn kaj ankoraŭ estas studento en gimnazio do mi ne havas multe da tempo por studi. La angla estas mia unua lingvo, mia dua estas la usona gestolingvo. Mi jam lernis tiun por pli ol du jaroj.

Mi opinias ke en la estonteco mi volas iĝi instruiston. Kion mi instruos? Mi ne scias. Eble la usona gestolingvon aŭ la anglan, sed ne instruisto de la angla por usonanoj, sed anstataŭe por eksterlandanoj.

Estu mia amiko se vi lernas la anglan por ke mi povas helpi vin.

Tempodivalse (Переглянути профіль) 17 січня 2013 р. 22:30:12

It looks good, there are a few (minor) suggestions I'd like to make:
Mi jam studis tion dum pli ol du jaroj.
It sounds a little odd to be saying "I already learned it for two years". "Studies" is more natural. "Tiu" is used either to modify a noun (e.g. tiu libro) or to indicate a person ("Tiu, kiu volas iĝi riĉa ..." ), not an inanimate object. It's better to either use "tio" (that) or "ĝi" (it).

Also, "dum" is more appropriate to indicate time.
Mi opinias ke en la estonteco mi volas iĝi instruisto
Iĝi and esti don't use accusatives since they don't use a direct object.
Eble la usonan gestolingvon
Don't forget the adjective-noun agreement. (Don't worry, people do this all the time.)
Estu mia amiko se vi lernas la anglan por ke mi povu helpi vin.
The construction "por ke ... verb" usually employs the imperative.

I hope that helps ridulo.gif

Aaron94 (Переглянути профіль) 18 січня 2013 р. 00:23:09

Thank you! That was very helpful. ^.^

lobo_xx (Переглянути профіль) 18 січня 2013 р. 08:42:18

Tempodivalse:
Estu mia amiko se vi lernas la anglan por ke mi povu helpi vin.
The construction "por ke ... verb" usually employs the imperative.

I hope that helps ridulo.gif
Ĉu ne helpi al vi?

Laŭ miaj spertoj, verboj de donado/prenado (kiel helpi) kaj ankaǔ informado (diri, aǔskulti, ktp.) indikas dativon - do helpi al iu.

Mi provis en guglo-tradukilo;
De la Angla al Eo: I will help you -> Mi helpos vin
De la Franca al Eo: Je vais t'aider -> Mi helpos al vi
De la Germana al Eo: Ich werde dir helfen -> Mi helpos al vi

La dativo ja gajnis, sed senŝerce: kio nun ĝustas?

Amike

lobo

Tempodivalse (Переглянути профіль) 18 січня 2013 р. 16:06:04

lobo_xx:
Ĉu ne helpi al vi?

Laŭ miaj spertoj, verboj de donado/prenado (kiel helpi) kaj ankaǔ informado (diri, aǔskulti, ktp.) indikas dativon - do helpi al iu.

Mi provis en guglo-tradukilo;
De la Angla al Eo: I will help you -> Mi helpos vin
De la Franca al Eo: Je vais t'aider -> Mi helpos al vi
De la Germana al Eo: Ich werde dir helfen -> Mi helpos al vi

La dativo ja gajnis, sed senŝerce: kio nun ĝustas?
lobo
(This is the English sub-forum, I think we're supposed to be speaking primarily English here. / Ni estas en la anglalingva forumo, do ĉu ne anglan ni plejparte parolu ĉi tie?)

Short translation for the English-only speakers in this subforum: lobo_xx suggests that "helpi" and other verbs indicating giving, or taking, should be using "al" instead of an accusative.

Perhaps, strictly speaking, you are right that "al" is semantically more logical. In many inflected languages, you'd probably use dative (in Russian: pomoch' komu? mne, dat' komu? tebe, etc). But I think that, here, the accusative is equally acceptable because there is no other word that you could confuse with "vin". If I were saying "Mi donos vin libron" then that is ambiguous, because "doni" wants both a dative and an accusative, so it should be "Mi donos al vi libron".

But there is no such difficulty here. Even if we added an infinitive, as often comes after "helpi", then in "helpi vin fari ion" it should be quite clear that "vin" pertains to the first verb and not the second.

I think that's the beauty of Esperanto, you can often get away with several different ways of saying the same thing, and you can use whatever sounds most natural to you without loss of understanding. For me, "helpi vin" just came into my head immediately and naturally. But if I read "helpi al vi", I would understand it at once.

(lobo_xx, mi esperas ke vi la ĉi-supran respondon komprenis, se vi volas la diskuton daŭrigi, mi proponas skribi angle aŭ komenci fadenon novan en EO ĉe pli taŭga sub-forumo.)

lobo_xx (Переглянути профіль) 19 січня 2013 р. 10:40:05

Sry, I totally missed this to be the english corner...

On the one hand, you're right - helpi vin cannot be misunderstood. But does this mean as well, that the freedom of choice should go so far, that for each verb only needing one object, we could choose either dative or accusative - and therefore not distinguish between direct and indirect objects?

A little more controversial question: If misuderstanding is the crucial point, why not say: I be, and you be, he be - or I are, She are,... totally clear - but grammatically wrong, though.

I also actually wondered about the imperative after por ke...; I looked it up in the grammer book; and there it says, it's got to be this way. Also here, "por ke mi povus helpi al vi" cannot be misunderstood; but also wrong.

The same thing goes for prepositions...

Amike

lobo

Timtim (Переглянути профіль) 21 січня 2013 р. 13:27:57

Lobo, your original premise that we must say "helpi al" and that using "helpi iun" is ignoring the grammar of the language is incorrect.

Helpi, obei and peti are exceptional verbs in that they are marked as both transitive and intransitive. Take a look in PIV and you'll see (x) where other verbs have (tr) or (ntr). Part of the consequence of this lack of precision or prescription for these verbs is that from day one there was greater flexibility in how to use them in a sentence, and so we would see "helpi iun fari ion" alongside "helpi al iu" with both forms considered correct. Zamenhof even used both forms in the ekzercaro, writing "li tre multe helpis la disvastigon (aŭ al la disvastigo) de la lingvo" and "obei al patro, obei patron" and elsewhere "peti informon, helpon de iu; peti iun pri helpo".

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