Poruke: 44
Jezik: English
Vespero_ (Prikaz profila) 24. siječnja 2013. 16:07:11
Kiu estas tiu, kiu li diris venanta?
Kiu estas tiu, ke li menciis venus?
These are probably all wrong on some level, but I was going less for strict correctness and more for figuring out how to approach the problem.
SethDamien (Prikaz profila) 24. siječnja 2013. 16:13:28
sudanglo:I think that last is exactly how it's used in English, though the English tendency to subsume participles into non-present-tense verb constructions confuses the issue. But I'm also amenable to arguments about not importing grammatical structures from other languages where 'native' methods can be manufactured convincingly.I think the biggest problem with "Kiun li diris veni?" is that the tense only tells us when he said it (i.e., in the past). It doesn't tell us whether the event being attended is in the past, present, or future.If this variation had usage support, this might not be too serious a problem. If extra precision were required you could always say Kiun li diris veninti/venonti?
I will say that this issue must have been addressed in practice--there are simply too many couples whose only common language is (for at least a few years) Esperanto for it not to have been practically resolved, though those solutions might not be very common, given the minority of such couples within the Esperanto community.
erinja (Prikaz profila) 25. siječnja 2013. 02:18:46
SethDamien:I will say that this issue must have been addressed in practice--there are simply too many couples whose only common language is (for at least a few years) Esperanto for it not to have been practically resolved, though those solutions might not be very common, given the minority of such couples within the Esperanto community.I was in an Esperanto-speaking relationship in the past, and I use Esperanto for a lot of business type use, in my work with lernu and with our financial sponsors, ESF.
Realistically, in this sort of situation, I would probably say "Ĉu li diris kiu venas?" rather than using one of the more complicated suggestions in this thread. I would personally say this in preference to the translations that I suggested earlier in this thread.
Literally it means "Did he say who is coming?", but to me, the obvious subtext is that the answer would not be a simple yes or no, but would also be the name of the person who is coming.
I haven't had this exact situation but I've had many situations of questions like "Ĉu ni jam decidis pri ...?" (Have we already decided about...?), with the subtext that if we have decided on it, I expect the person to remind me of what we decided. And they always have, so obviously I'm not the only one with this expectation!
Obviously when you live your life in a language, you say things in a way that makes sense in that language, rather than trying to exactly translate how you would say something in another language. This particular issue hasn't ever been a problem with me. I just say what comes naturally in Esperanto, rather than trying to translate a particular English construction.
Sometimes one language has a more succinct way of saying something, and you do pause for a second and ask "How can I say that more elegantly?", but it actually works in both directions. I've sometimes regretted that I've never thought of a good way of saying "senti la mankon de io" in English - to feel the lack of something doesn't sound like good idiomatic English, and feeling something's lack is a little different from missing something (the ostensible translation). Translation can be tricky - something that sounds totally fine in one language sometimes has to be changed around completely to avoid making it sound clumsy and lame in another language.
Breto (Prikaz profila) 25. siječnja 2013. 03:17:18
erinja:Sometimes one language has a more succinct way of saying something, and you do pause for a second and ask "How can I say that more elegantly?", but it actually works in both directions. I've sometimes regretted that I've never thought of a good way of saying "senti la mankon de io" in English - to feel the lack of something doesn't sound like good idiomatic English, and feeling something's lack is a little different from missing something (the ostensible translation). Translation can be tricky - something that sounds totally fine in one language sometimes has to be changed around completely to avoid making it sound clumsy and lame in another language.What's wrong with "to feel the lack of something"? I've used that basic phrase numerous times over the years. (Also "to feel something's lacking/missing" and "to feel something's absence".) Granted, I've been told on occasion that I talk like a technical manual, but that's beside the point. Certainly no one's ever looked at me funny for these constructions.
...apologies if this is off-topic. I don't mean to derail the thread.
erinja (Prikaz profila) 25. siječnja 2013. 03:25:14
In normal English you'd say "I miss my friend John" or "Some salt seems to be missing from this dish"
Breto (Prikaz profila) 25. siječnja 2013. 03:32:29
RiotNrrd (Prikaz profila) 25. siječnja 2013. 04:06:00
He has an interesting take on inexact translations like that.
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2...
sudanglo (Prikaz profila) 25. siječnja 2013. 11:17:32
But imagine you had been dozing off during a lecture. Would 'Did he say who invented the turbine?' work for 'Who did he say invented the turbine?'? You really do want to know two quite different things. And if you think the lecturer may have got it wrong, then 'Who invented the turbine' won't do either.
Of course, there are things that fit comfortably in one language and not another. But we are not here talking about a type of question that is specific to one language. It seems clear that most, if not all, European languages have their way of expressing such questions, and the issue is how does Esperanto do it.
The point about Esperanto couples having had to address the issue is an interesting one. But personally I have never been convinced about the quality of communication in such pairs, and it wouldn't surprise me to discover that many of the solutions worked out are highly specific to the couple concerned.
erinja (Prikaz profila) 25. siječnja 2013. 11:45:56
sudanglo:The point about Esperanto couples having had to address the issue is an interesting one. But personally I have never been convinced about the quality of communication in such pairs, and it wouldn't surprise me to discover that many of the solutions worked out are highly specific to the couple concerned.Having been in such a pair, I would not say that communication quality was lacking. I would say that there were definitely some private words, some unofficial loan words, or some expressions used, and this is a common thing based on my discussions with other people who have been in such a relationship.
But I don't limit this to Esperanto speakers. In my family growing up, we had such words that were unique to us. My dad would occasionally refer to my mom as "Mutti" (a relic of my grandparents' living in Germany for a few years in the 70's), I would occasionally be told to brush my "zoobies" (a relic of the Russian that my grandfather grew up speaking at home), and we all knew that a "yuck bug" was in fact a boxelder bug (that was my own childhood coinage). I've met other families with their own private words for something, borrowed from another language or based on something one of the kids used to say. It seems common.
Edit:
sudanglo:'Did he say who invented the turbine?' work for 'Who did he say invented the turbine?'? You really do want to know two quite different things. And if you think the lecturer may have got it wrong, then 'Who invented the turbine' won't do either.If I think the lecturer said it and I may have missed it, I might say "Ĉu li jam diris kiu inventis la turbinon?", and if I think he got it wrong, then I'd say "Li diris ke KIU inventis la turbinon???" (in surprise, because I think someone made a mistake, I would be likely to say something similar in English - Wait, he just said that WHO invented the turbine???)
sudanglo (Prikaz profila) 25. siječnja 2013. 11:51:35
However, Esperanto is an international language and something known to most European languages must be expressible in Esperanto. If not, it impedes international communication.
You can't just fall back on the old linguists' argument all languages are different.
This reminds me of the issue of 'We shall have to have the carpet cleaned' which is uncomfortable in Esperanto because of the seeming necessity of doubling up 'ig'. Yet is there a European language which is incapable of expressing this idea?