글: 44
언어: English
sudanglo (프로필 보기) 2013년 1월 23일 오전 10:17:03
It was suggested with some assistance from PMEG that one should say Pri kiu li diris, ke tiu venos. Note the tiu to avoid having to specify the sex of who he said was coming.
My problem is that searching the Tekstaro I couldn't find a single example (perhaps you can do better) of a question like this using Pri kiu. But this type of double question seems the sort that should occur freqently.
I can't believe that the languages of Europe don't have a way of handling this structure.
sudanglo (프로필 보기) 2013년 1월 23일 오후 12:52:39
"Kiu, laŭ li, venos?"Of course, Erinja. But this doesn't distinguish between diri, kredi, supozi, suspekti, decidi etc - who did he say, believe, suppose, suspect, decide was coming.
And I suspect that the problem with this type of double question is wider than sentences where 'laŭ' would be a solution.
Your second solution has more precision and generality. The 'ke' neatly distinguishes between, for example, she said who was coming and who did she say was coming.
tommjames (프로필 보기) 2013년 1월 23일 오후 1:02:40
sudanglo (프로필 보기) 2013년 1월 23일 오후 3:30:41
It seems a bit strange to say Kiu, laŭ ni, devus havi/ricevi la monon. That is almost as if we haven't yet made the decision.
In this case however there is an easy work-around Kion ni decidis pri kiu ricevu la monon?
tommjames (프로필 보기) 2013년 1월 23일 오후 4:15:19
sudanglo:It seems a bit strange to say Kiu, laŭ ni, devus havi/ricevi la monon. That is almost as if we haven't yet made the decision..Yes that is a bit odd. This probably shows that the ideal way of translating these kinds of indirect-speech questions is likely to depend a fair bit on the type of phrase and words used. In this case it seems like it's "we decided" that makes "laŭ ni" inappropriate. But if you change "we/ni" to "they/ili", it doesn't seem so bad.
EldanarLambetur (프로필 보기) 2013년 1월 23일 오후 10:44:46
I also like the "Li diris ke *kiu* venos?" solution, especially for speech. It seems quite direct. Though the emphasis seems quite important in the interpretation.
The PMEG "pri kiu" solution seems quite roundabout.
I wonder, does it make sense to resort to adverbs?
E.g.
Decide de li, kiu venos?
Krede de li, kiu venos?
Like a kind of
"on/by/according to his belief, who will come?"
"on/by/according to his decision, who will come?"
Do you need a "laŭ" in there somewhere? Does it make any sense?
Tempodivalse (프로필 보기) 2013년 1월 23일 오후 11:05:51
EldanarLambetur:At first blush it didn't seem at all obvious how to parse those adverbs. I'm trying to think of how exactly we interpret adverb + de. I can think of "okaze de" (in case of), "senkonsidere de" (irrespective of), "rilate de" (pertaining to, although "al" or accusative is more customary). But "Krede de li" = "believing of him"? "in the belief of him?"
I wonder, does it make sense to resort to adverbs?
E.g.
Decide de li, kiu venos?
Krede de li, kiu venos?
Like a kind of
"on/by/according to his belief, who will come?"
"on/by/according to his decision, who will come?"
Okay, I so after a few minutes' turning it over in my head, I think your suggestion is acceptable, although depending on how much the surrounding context elucidates it, the phrase seems ambiguous at best. I think the shortest and directest translation would be "Li diris ke venos kiu?" (or "kiu venos" depending on emphasis).
If we wanted to be a little more specific, I could propose "Laŭ lia kredo/decido/etc., kiu venos?" but that's not so concise.
EldanarLambetur (프로필 보기) 2013년 1월 24일 오전 12:41:33
Either way, here was my inspiration, if you're interested:
http://bertilow.com/pmeg/gramatiko/rolmontriloj/ro...
Especially "sekve de", as a kind of "following from...". So when you inquire something "krede de", you're enquiring about a belief originating from the object of "de".
The "e-word + de" construction often seemed to translate to "on/by/to (or other preposition) the [o-word] of/from...". So I just jammed the ideas together.
