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addressing a group of a certain number of members

de Ganove, 2013-januaro-29

Mesaĝoj: 13

Lingvo: English

Ganove (Montri la profilon) 2013-januaro-29 00:24:32

I am not really sure how to express this in English, anyhow, I would like to know how to express it in Esperanto and if you wouldn't mind, please, correct my English if there are mistakes.

Following situations:
I am talking with a single person: 'We two (adressing person a and me)...'

I am talking with two persons: 'We three (adressing person a, person b and me)...'

I am talking with three person: ''We four (addressing person a, person b, person c and me)...'

I would like to know how to say 'we two, we three, we four, we...' in Esperanto.

Thank you four your help!

Tempodivalse (Montri la profilon) 2013-januaro-29 00:50:19

I don't think it is common to put a number after "we" in this type of situation in either English or Esperanto. Usually, the context should be enough to make the meaning clear without having to put a number.

If you want to stress plurality, the most frequent formation is ni ĉiuj = "we all" or "all of us". Or, if you are referring to just two people, I would recommend saying ni ambaŭ.

However, I don't think it is actually grammatically wrong to say ni tri, ni kvar. The meaning is fairly obvious to me. But I haven't ever seen these forms used in practice.

Ganove (Montri la profilon) 2013-januaro-29 01:55:05

Tempodivalse:I don't think it is common to put a number after "we" in this type of situation in either English or Esperanto. Usually, the context should be enough to make the meaning clear without having to put a number.

If you want to stress plurality, the most frequent formation is ni ĉiuj = "we all" or "all of us". Or, if you are referring to just two people, I would recommend saying ni ambaŭ.
Maybe it isn't common in English to stress a certain amount of members in a group. I read something like this in a German tale: 'Our relationship was much closer. We three were like brothers.' meaning just these three of us were very good friends.

There are even languages which have a grammatical number for two (dual) or three (trial) things of a group.
As for Esperanto, I know there is only singular and plural, anyhow, it should be able to stress a certain amount of members of a group in Esperanto. And, as you said, there's a word for two 'ambaŭ' so why is it strange using other numbers?

How about the 2nd person?
'You two/three/four...'
Does it sound bad, too, or could I say in Esperanto 'Vi ambaŭ/tri/kvar...' ?

Tempodivalse:However, I don't think it is actually grammatically wrong to say ni tri, ni kvar. The meaning is fairly obvious to me. But I haven't ever seen these forms used in practice.
So would you advise me not to use it in Esperanto?

I know the written language usually differs from the spoken language. Maybe this applies to Esperanto, too, but I am nut sure.

brodicius (Montri la profilon) 2013-januaro-29 07:37:00

Took me a while to figure out what you were trying to say. Until you said the "We three were like brothers.". There used to be a construction like this in English, but it sounds really really archaic now. Very rarely I've seen or heard someone use 'ni ambaŭ' or 'ni ĉiu/ĉiuj'. But it's really not necessary in Esperanto. It's just using an extra word when 'ni' would be sufficient.

sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2013-januaro-29 12:17:37

A qualifying plural after vi/ni is really common in Esperanto. For example - Vi ĉiuj devas min obei or Ni angloj ne kredas je la Eŭro.

So there doesn't seem to be any good reason why you shouldn't say, for example, Vi tri, venu kun mi, if you need to. As you would in English - You three, come with me.

Example from the Bible - Purigu la manojn, vi pekuloj, kaj ĉastigu la korojn, vi duoblanimuloj (wash your hands, you sinners).

oxymor (Montri la profilon) 2013-januaro-29 12:54:00

For me, it sounds absolutely ok in Esperanto (maybe I'm biased because we use it quite often in french).

dombola (Montri la profilon) 2013-januaro-29 13:32:31

Bonega demando!

Jen ekzemplo de Zamenhof pri la uzado de tiaj esprimoj, en " La Batalo de l’ Vivo ":

“En tiu ĉi farso,” daŭrigis la doktoro, “ĝi estus tiu ĉi kuntrafiĝo de la tago de l’ adiaŭdiro kun duobla tago de naskiĝo, al kiu por ni kvar estas ligitaj multaj agrablaj rememoroj kaj kiu ĉiam revokados al ni en la memoron nian longan kaj amikan kunevivadon. Sed tio ne apartenas tien ĉi.”

See above an example from Zamenhof, and compare with the original text in "The
Battle of Life" from Charles Dickens:

'In such a farce as this,' observed the Doctor, 'it might be this recurrence, on the eve of
separation, of a double birthday, which is connected with many associations pleasant to us
four, and with the recollection of a long and amicable intercourse. That's not to the purpose.'

Now take a break and listen We Four

Leke (Montri la profilon) 2013-januaro-29 14:47:29

Tempodivalse:I don't think it is common to put a number after "we" in this type of situation in either English or Esperanto. Usually, the context should be enough to make the meaning clear without having to put a number.

If you want to stress plurality, the most frequent formation is ni ĉiuj = "we all" or "all of us". Or, if you are referring to just two people, I would recommend saying ni ambaŭ.

However, I don't think it is actually grammatically wrong to say ni tri, ni kvar. The meaning is fairly obvious to me. But I haven't ever seen these forms used in practice.
In my particular dialect of English (Liverpudlian) it's quite common, but instead of saying "we two", we would say "us two", "us three" etc...

Bruso (Montri la profilon) 2013-januaro-29 17:41:29

Didn't anyone sing "Ni Tri Reĝoj de Oriento Estas" last month? Somebody, surely.

vejktoro (Montri la profilon) 2013-januaro-30 06:02:47

Hey Ganove,

It's fine. You can say that in English and Esperanto no problem if that's how ya wanna say it. For the 2% that don't understand, just say it again. Everyone will get it the second time.

Sure, I gotta say everything twice half the time anyway.

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