Hello,

in order to practise the Esperanto I've learned so far and to find some more Esperanto words to learn and to add a further Esperanto tale, I thought about translating one of my grandmother's tales she used to relate long time ago.
Now, I would be glad if you give some feedback about any grammatical or verbal mistakes or anything else catching your eyes.
So, without further ado, here it goes:

La rakonto de la kokido kaj virkoko

Kokido kaj virkoko iris deŝiri rubusberojn.
Kiam ilia korbeto estis plena, la koko diris: "Kokido, ni iru hejmen!"
Sed la kokido diris: "Ne, mi ne volas."

"Bone", la virkoko diris, "tiam mi venigos la bastonon. Bastono, venu bati la kokidon, la kokido ne volas iri hejmen!"
Sed la bastono diris: "Ne, mi ne volas."

"Bone", la virkoko diris, "tiam mi venigos la fajro. Fajro, venu bruligi la bastonon, la bastono ne volas bati kokidon, la kokido ne volas iri hejmen."
Sed la fajro diris: "Ne, mi ne volas."

"Bone", la virkoko diris, "tiam mi venigos la akvon. Akvo, venu estingi la fajron, la fajro ne volas bruligi la bastonon, la bastono ne volas bati kokidon, la kokido ne volas iri hejmen."
Sed la akvo diris: "Ne, mi ne volas."

"Bone", la virkoko diris, "tiam mi venigos la virbovon. Virbovo, venu trinki la akvon, la akvo ne volas estingi la fajron, la fajro ne volas bruligi la bastonon, la bastono ne volas bati kokidon, la kokido ne volas iri hejmen."
Sed la virbovo diris: "Ne, mi ne volas."

"Bone", la virkoko diris, "tiam mi venigos la buĉiston. Buĉisto, venu buĉi la virbovon, la virbovo ne volas trinki la akvon, la akvo ne volas estingi la fajron, la fajro ne volas bruligi la bastonon, la bastono ne volas bati kokidon, la kokido ne volas iri hejmen."

La buĉisto diris: "Konsentite! Mi venas."
Kiam la virbovo aŭdis tion, li diris: "Antaŭ ol mi lasos min buĉi, mi trinku la akvon."
La akvo diris: "Antaŭ ol mi lasos min trinki, mi estingu la fajron."
La fajro diris: "Antaŭ ol mi lasos min estingi, mi bruligu la bastonon."
La bastono diris: "Antaŭ ol mi lasos min bruligi, mi batu la kokidon."
La kokido diris: "Antaŭ ol mi lasos min bati, mi iru hejmen."

Tio estis la rakonto de la kokido kaj virkoko.
Se ili ne mortis, ili estas vivaj ankoraŭ hodiaŭ.

When I was translating this tale some questions have arisen:
Does "tiam" also implies a temporal implication or a result of something? I considerred using "tiuokaze" instead.
"Antaŭ ol mi lasas buĉi/drinki/... min" sounds so Germanic in my ears could I also say "Antaŭ ol mi lasas buĉiĝi/drinkiĝi..." or are there other construction to express that in a more Esperanto way?

Thank you for your help!

EDIT: I corrected mistakes and integrated suggestions.

I suppose "plana" should be "plena", full, and "drinki" should be "trinki". "Trinki" is the neutral word for "to drink", while "drinki is mostly used when talking about alcohol abuse.

"Bone", la virkoko diris, "tiam mi venigas la bastonon. Bastono

Tiam can be used for ĉe tiu okazo. Other possibilities here are 'se tiel', 'nu do', tiuokaze'. It's seems to be just a question of style

However, I find the use of the present tense (venigas) unnatural. I would say 'venigos'.

"Antaŭ ol mi lasas buĉi min, mi prefere drinkas la akvon."

Here, I might have said 'Antaŭ ol mi lasos min buĉi, mi trinku la akvon'.

Using 'prefere' sets up a semantic strain, since the meaning of 'antaŭ ol' is not 'instead of'. I assume the intended meaning is before I let myself be slaughtered, rather than instead of letting myself be slaughtered.

There are plenty of examples in NPIV of the type lasi pronoun X-i, where the accusative pronoun is the object of X-i. A nice one is Mi lasis min kapti neatendite (I let myself be caught).

But you can also say Mi lasis ŝin paroli with the meaning: I allowed her to speak. In that case the accusative pronoun is the subject of the infinitive.

sudanglo:

"Antaŭ ol mi lasas buĉi min, mi prefere drinkas la akvon."

Here, I might have said 'Antaŭ ol mi lasos min buci, mi trinku la akvon'.

Oh, I forgot that the u-mood is also used for expressing a wish or a desire.

sudanglo:Using 'prefere' sets up a semantic strain, since the meaning of 'antau ol' is not 'instead of'. I assume the intended meaning is before I let myself be slaughtered, rather than instead of letting myself be slaughtered.

Yes, the intended meaning was "before" and not "instead of".
So I can't use "preferi" in combination with "antaŭ ol"?

sudanglo:There are plenty of examples in NPIV of the type lasi pronoun X-i, where the accusative pronoun is the object of X-i. A nice one is Mi lasis min kapti neatendite (I let myself be caught).

So, is the common use "modal verb + object + full verb" or does this just applies to the given situation here?

So I can't use "preferi" in combination with "antaŭ ol"?

The problem is what is the contrast, what do you prefer over what.

If you say Mi preferas studi la faktojn antaŭ ol doni mian opion you are contrasting studying the facts with not studying the facts, before giving your opinion.

The virbovo is not saying I prefer drinking the water before being slaughtered to not drinking the water before my demise.

Or, if the intended meaning is that he would rather drink the water than be slaughtered, then we don't need antaŭ ol. And the story is less amusing if the virbovo says that.

A similar song exists in french. See:
Biquette

sudanglo:

So I can't use "preferi" in combination with "antaŭ ol"?

The problem is what is the contrast, what do you prefer over what.

The virbovo is on the verge of being slaughtered, since he's not willing to drink the water.
But then he decides to drink the water, though, shortly before he is being slaughtered in order to avoid being slaughtered.
So he prefers drinking the water over being slaughtered.

The situation is like:
"Oh, I didn't know you don't like the music but before you leave my party I will change the music."

I thought about the German "bevor" and I came to the conclusion that it must contain a "conditional temporal before", too, at least in the dialect the tale comes from. Maybe this doesn't work in Esperanto or English.

sudanglo:Or, if the intended meaning is that he would rather drink the water than be slaughtered, then we don't need antaŭ ol. And the story is less amusing if the virbovo says that.

[/quote]I think that was the meaning my grandmother wanted to give it. At least that's how I understood it when it was related to me. Unfortunately I can't ask my grandmother anymore and I didn't find any records of it either so I can't say how its orginal meaning is. Maybe my grandmother or any other adapted it from the French song "Biquette", since Altebrilas said that it is quite similar. Unfortunetaly I can't understand much of the French one, so maybe he can say how it expressed there.

And I agree with you, it is less assuming when we change it to that.

Sorry, my German is too limited to judge how 'bevor' is used. The French version doesn't use the notion of 'antaŭ ol' at all.

My point is a little pedantic, but a quite simple one. If you use 'prefer' in verbal or adverbial form it implies a contrast. You prefer something over something else. This idea is not contained in 'antaŭ ol'. Though 'ol by itself can be used to contrast preferences. Mi preferas resti hejme ol iri al la kongreso.

If you want show a preference for drinking the water over being slaughtered 'antaŭ ol' won't help to convey this, it merely puts one action in advance (temporally of the other).

That the idea here is 'OK you can slaughter me but first let me have a drink' (and so on down the line), is made more plausible by the comment at the end Se ili (virkoko kaj kokido) ne mortis, ili estas vivaj ankoraŭ hodiaŭ.

If it were a whole sequence of instead of's and not before's, the final outcome would be clearer. But with the sense that actual outcomes are less defined at each stage, then this comment nicely rounds off the tale. Or so it seems to me.

However, you could say Antaŭ ol lasi min buĉi, mi prefere trinku, but this would contrast having a drink with not having a drink, before the sad ending.

sudanglo:My point is a little pedantic, but a quite simple one. If you use 'prefer' in verbal or adverbial form it implies a contrast. You prefer something over something else. This idea is not contained in 'antaŭ ol'. Though 'ol by itself can be used to contrast preferences. Mi preferas resti hejme ol iri al la kongreso.

Pedantic is absolute okay, since I am here to improve my Esperanto
I think now I have understood what you wanted to explain.

sudanglo:If you want show a preference for drinking the water over being slaughtered 'antaŭ ol' won't help to convey this, it merely puts one action in advance (temporally of the other).

I thought something like that. But that is ok, since I read anywhere that one can't translate a language in another language without loosing some little information.

sudanglo:That the idea here is 'OK you can slaughter me but first let me have a drink' (and so on down the line), is made more plausible by the comment at the end Se ili (virkoko kaj kokido) ne mortis, ili estas vivaj ankoraŭ hodiaŭ.

Actually the most of the German tales ends in something like "Und wenn sie nicht gestorben sind, dann leben sie heute noch." (literally "Se ili ne mortis, ili estas vivaj ankoraŭ hodiaŭ." ) which I probably wrongly translated literally into Esperanto, since I looked up the English translation for it and dict.cc says "And they all lived happily ever after".

sudanglo:If it were a whole sequence of instead of's and not before's, the final outcome would be clearer. But with the sense that actual outcomes are less defined at each stage, then this comment nicely rounds off the tale. Or so it seems to me.

However, you could say Antaŭ ol lasi min buĉi, mi prefere trinku, but this would contrast having a drink with not having a drink, before the sad ending.

[/quote]The final outcame was supposed to be that everybody survived. I think the moral of the tale is that one can't always do what one feels like doing, sometimes one has to bite the bullet. So the kokido which didn't feel like going home finally did go home.

My first Esperanto book was Esperanto-kurso, by Vilho Setälä, published in Finland 1939. There was a similar tale. It is quite superficial, when it comes to the psychology of each step, and maybe not even logical. I quote the closing sentence:
"La kato volis kapti la muson, la muso mordi la ŝnuron, la ŝnuro sufoki la bovon, la bovo trinki la akvon, la akvo estingi la fajron, la fajro bruligi la bastonon, la bastono bati la kapron, la kapro iris hejmen."

I think it is a good exercise for those who find the use of ackusative difficult.