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Best translation of a phrase?

od sindyr, 10 marca 2013

Wpisy: 22

Język: English

sindyr (Pokaż profil) 10 marca 2013, 14:41:26

First of all, although I used to know Esperanto much better, I have been away from it for around 15 years or so. Now I am coming back to it, and participating in a local study group.

Secondly, is this the proper forum for questions of this type? If not, which one is the right one? Our group needs a place to go to ask questions we are unsure about - is this where we do that?

Finally, here is my current question. I am sure there will be many more.

The phrase "Something is bothering her" If I translate it literally that would be "Io ĝenas ŝin." I think. But do I translate it literally? I know the phrase "It is warm" isn't "Ĝi estas varma" but "Estas varma" - there is no actualy "it". Is there an actual "something"?

Maybe I'm overcomplicating this. Is it really translated as "Io ĝenas ŝin."? And therefore, if you want to ask someone if something is bothering them, is it: "Ĉu io ĝenas vin?"

Thanks.

erinja (Pokaż profil) 10 marca 2013, 16:06:46

This is the perfect place to ask questions. Feel free to ask here in English. Or else if you want to ask in Esperanto, you can ask in one of the Esperanto forums - the one for language questions.

I would say "Io ĝenas ŝin" for something is bothering her.

But remember that it's "Estas varme", with an -e. It would be an -a ending if you had a noun there, but in the absence of a noun, since there's only a verb, you need an adverb ending -e.

pdenisowski (Pokaż profil) 10 marca 2013, 17:37:11

sindyr:The phrase "Something is bothering her" If I translate it literally that would be "Io ĝenas ŝin." I think. But do I translate it literally? I know the phrase "It is warm" isn't "Ĝi estas varma" but "Estas varma" - there is no actualy "it". Is there an actual "something"?

Maybe I'm overcomplicating this. Is it really translated as "Io ĝenas ŝin."? And therefore, if you want to ask someone if something is bothering them, is it: "Ĉu io ĝenas vin?"
To me the English word "bother" can be used in two different cases : (1) to prevent one from obtaining peace of mind and (2) to actively and strongly annoy. In Esperanto these would be "maltrankiviligi" and "ĝeni", respectively.

These are not interchangeable in Espearnto : e.g. you can say "Ne ĝenu min!" (Stop bothering me!, Don't bother me!), but not "Ne maltrankviligu min!"

The reason I bring this up is that, depending on the context, one could translate "Something is bothering her" as "Ŝi maltrankviliĝas" (note the -iĝ-).

Although a more literal translation of this would be "she became troubled (anxious, worried, etc.)", I feel that "Ŝi maltrankviliĝas" is probably better style than "Io ĝenas ŝin," again, depending on the context.

Likewise, I would probably not ask someone "Ĉu io ĝenas vin?" but rather something like "Ĉu vi malkontentas?" or "Ĉu vi estas malkontenta?"

But again, this is a matter of style -- de gustibus non est disputandum ...ridulo.gif

Amike,

Paul

erinja (Pokaż profil) 10 marca 2013, 19:39:50

Yes, that's true. You have to think of the correct type of "bothering" to translate it correctly.

sindyr (Pokaż profil) 10 marca 2013, 20:17:36

Apart from one particular follow question, one thing I like about the English "Is something bothering you?" is how it puts focus on the things that is causing the strife - I don't find "Are you troubled" to have the same meaning as "Is something troubling you?" and would like to ask either depending on my purpose - and I certainly hope Esperanto gives me both options.

So, if I understand this correctly:

Is something troubling you = Ĉu io ĝenas vin?
(Or if you want more syllables, Ĉu io maltrankviligas vin?)
-and-
Are you troubled? = Ĉu vi ĝeniĝas?
(and possibly, Ĉu vi maltrankvilas?)

Because in this case, I want to ask a question that, if answered in the afirmative, I can reply "Kio?" (What?) - if I simply asked "Are you troubled" and someone says "yes", me following up with the single word "What?" doesn't make any sense unless I didn't hear them!

Does this all make sense?

sindyr (Pokaż profil) 10 marca 2013, 20:26:38

erinja:But remember that it's "Estas varme", with an -e. It would be an -a ending if you had a noun there, but in the absence of a noun, since there's only a verb, you need an adverb ending -e.
I get that "Estas varme" is correct, but what isn't "Estas varma" also correct? Let me explain:

One can say "The day is warm" = La tago estas varma. But in English and Esperanto and many other languages, you can left out words - You *can* say "He got his books and she got her books" but you can also say "He got his books and she got hers", which is more common.

If instead I am saying "La tago estas varma." but I am omitting or eliding the "La tago" part, the rest of the sentence would be unchanged, as "varma" still applies to the omitted and understood noun "tago", or "vetero", etc.

So that should make it not at all incorrect to say "Estas varma".

After all, we say "It's warm" in English, we don't say "It's warmly". I am not even sure it makes sense to use an adverb there in any language - unless all languages are supposed to but English screws it up?

This seems confusing because that all makes sense, but it seems that Esperanto disagrees. Why?

pdenisowski (Pokaż profil) 10 marca 2013, 21:04:40

sindyr:After all, we say "It's warm" in English, we don't say "It's warmly". I am not even sure it makes sense to use an adverb there in any language - unless all languages are supposed to but English screws it up?
Well, Polish uses the adverb instead of the adjective for expressing atmospheric temperature :

Dziś (today) jest (is) gorąco (hot - adverb)
not
Dziś jest gorący* (adj)

However, you could use "gorący" (adjective) as a response :

Jaki będzie lipiec? (What will July be like?)
Lipiec będzie gorący (July will be hot - adj.)

but note

W lipcu będzie gorąco (It will be hot in July - adv.)

The same pattern exists in Russian

Сегодня жарко - Today is hot (adv.)
Сегодня самая жаркая погода - Today's weather is really hot (adj.)

I'm guessing it's similar in most other Slavic languages.

Amike,

Paul

sindyr (Pokaż profil) 10 marca 2013, 21:40:52

But is *is* correct in Esperanto to say "La tago estas varma.", right? I mean, varma in that sentence *is* an adjective, right? So if you dropped out the "La tago" as implicit, it would still be "Estas varma."

hebda999 (Pokaż profil) 10 marca 2013, 22:48:49

sindyr:But is *is* correct in Esperanto to say "La tago estas varma.", right? I mean, varma in that sentence *is* an adjective, right? So if you dropped out the "La tago" as implicit, it would still be "Estas varma."
Just because English is using some grammatical feature it does not mean that Esperanto is also supposed to use it in the same way. Just read more Esperanto literature and you will get used to it. In Esperanto we say:

Estas varme.

Not

Estas varma.

sindyr (Pokaż profil) 10 marca 2013, 23:00:31

But this does not answer - or address my question.

Where's the sense? Where's the logic and reason? Or is it a point where you do it in Esperanto even though it makes no sense?

In other words, I am not looking for a rule to blindly follow, I am looking for the reason it works that way - if any exists.

"La tago estas varma" is perfectly good Esperanto, right? In that sentence, varma is an adjective.

"(la tago) estas varma" is the exact same sentence, one is just not verbalizing the first two words, but they are still implicit. "varma" is still an adjective. Are you telling me that in this case the adjective should end with an "-e"?

Note: Esperanto can have whatever rules it wants to for how to encapsulate communication, BUT there is NO rules of language that can make "varma" used as above actually BE an adverb, it is NOT.

So is the rule in Esperanto to treat adjectives with implicit referrants as if they were adverbs, even though they demonstrably and clearly are not?

THIS is what is confusing to me.

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