espere: I'm not quite sure what a neutral international accent is, how it sounds, or why anyone would even aim to have one. Accents make a language interesting; I had a boss from Bahstin who loved his kah and friends from Kuhlyfornya who loved their karrrs.

Be that as it may, you will most certainly encounter MANY international accents in Esperanto -- but the more you try to speak with a neutral accent (an accent that doesn't make your national origin obvious), the more easily others will be able to understand you. It can be difficult to understand an Esperanto speaker of foreign origin even when they are making their best attempt at a clear accent. In the spirit of helping others understand you, it's polite to try to do the best accent you can.

erinja:

espere: I'm not quite sure what a neutral international accent is, how it sounds, or why anyone would even aim to have one. Accents make a language interesting; I had a boss from Bahstin who loved his kah and friends from Kuhlyfornya who loved their karrrs.

Be that as it may, you will most certainly encounter MANY international accents in Esperanto -- but the more you try to speak with a neutral accent (an accent that doesn't make your national origin obvious), the more easily others will be able to understand you. It can be difficult to understand an Esperanto speaker of foreign origin even when they are making their best attempt at a clear accent. In the spirit of helping others understand you, it's polite to try to do the best accent you can.

I think you're missing my point. Let's use English as an example. What would be an international accent in regards to English? Bob Marley? Nelson Mandela? Tom Brokaw? Willie Nelson? Queen Elizabeth? I don't see how a "neutral" accent is possible. Just like the cot-caught merger. "Cot" rhymes with "tot" and "spot" when I say it. "Caught" rhymes with "bought", "fought" and "ought". But that's for me, not all English speakers. They are both "subdialects" of American English, but if I went to England, they may look at me like I'm crazy. I have a hard time understanding movies in British English ("Trainspotting", "This Is England", etc.) and we all speak the same language.

An international accent is something that I cannot get my head around. That's in every language. Compare Quebecois French to France French or Brazilian Portuguese to Standard Portuguese or Afrikaans to Dutch or any Latin American or Caribbean Spanish to Spain Spanish (the former sounds much nicer). I can barely understand a word in Quebecois French because it's mangled up with Canadian English, but I have an easier time with standard France French. They are in many respects the same language, but accents have developed over time. Every speaker is going to have an accent no matter how much they try to cover it up -- even Stephen Colbert. He's from South Carolina and tries very hard to cover his accent. Even Esperanto will develop, over time, dialects based on accents. We've got 3 pages of discussion based on only two vowel sounds, one of which (I suppose) doesn't even exist in English.

This whole accent thing is starting to erode the fun of the language. "International accent" seems like an oxymoron to me. Plus how would one learn it with no "international accent" speaker around? I know a few words in Serbian and Russian but that's because they were taught to me by Serbians and Russians.

International accent" seems like an oxymoron to me. Plus how would one learn it

The concept of an international accent reflects an established reality in the Esperanto-speaking community.

Broadly it refers to a pronunciation of Esperanto which does not have features particular to anybody's mother tongue, or one from which the speaker's mother tongue is not quickly identifiable.

Though which of the accents that come within the designation of 'international' are most pleasing is a separate issue.

Post a link to any Esperanto speech on the net and ask forum members what they think of the accent.

They will quickly tell you if the accent of the speaker concerned is French, Spanish, German, Russian, whatever, and how close it comes to an international accent.

An international accent is worth aiming for, because within the Esperanto speech community it has high status.

A pronounced English accent has low status.

It's worth prescribing what an "international" or "neutral" accent means in Esperanto.

As far as I can tell it means:

- Pure vowels (no diphthongs or appoximations)
- Rolled or tapped r
- Clearly enunciating consonant/vowel culsters (s-c-i-i)
- Placing stress in the right place (Esperánto éstas língvo)

espere:What would be an international accent in regards to English?
...
An international accent is something that I cannot get my head around.

English has no such thing as a neutral accent. But Esperanto does. There is such a thing as a neutral accent, which would be considered the international standard. Speakers of Italian and Hungarian, in particular, are seen as having a relatively easy time achieving this accent.

Most Esperanto courses aim to teach this accent as best they can. And if you ask on an Esperanto forum for video or audio examples of a "good accent" or a "neutral accent", this is the accent they will direct you to. Pure vowels, rolled r's, more or less the features that kefga_x listed above.

erinja:

espere:What would be an international accent in regards to English?
...
An international accent is something that I cannot get my head around.

English has no such thing as a neutral accent. But Esperanto does. There is such a thing as a neutral accent, which would be considered the international standard. Speakers of Italian and Hungarian, in particular, are seen as having a relatively easy time achieving this accent.

Most Esperanto courses aim to teach this accent as best they can. And if you ask on an Esperanto forum for video or audio examples of a "good accent" or a "neutral accent", this is the accent they will direct you to. Pure vowels, rolled r's, more or less the features that kefga_x listed above.

This is frustrating. I'm banging my head against a brick wall. Even in "Tiel La Mondo Iras" which apparently was good enough to be on an Esperanto documentary, his R's are not rolled. In fact, they sound like D's.

I like the language; I like languages, but having a language police doesn't help. There are very few native speakers and it is almost completely subjective. If I say "oak dek now", who are you to tell me I sound bad? I'm basing it from my knowledge of what I know and there are some sounds I will not be able to make. I can draw two figures on a sheet of paper, one with a circle on top of another and another with a vertical line and a circle attached to the top left radiating to the left and you'll know what I am saying.

A language is a living thing. It grows. It changes over time. In English, we once had "ye". Now we have "the". We had a soft s symbol, now we have "s". Germany has a city named München. Americans call it Munich. It's still the same city.

That's all.

I'm on to another question.

sudanglo:

A pronounced English accent has low status.

So much for equality and bringing people together... Good to know Esperantists can be as snobbish as speakers of other languages.

espere:I like the language; I like languages, but having a language police doesn't help. There are very few native speakers and it is almost completely subjective. If I say "oak dek now", who are you to tell me I sound bad?

There are no language police. Pronounce the words how you want. But the stronger your accent (from wherever you come from, I don't know), the more difficult it will be for some people to understand you. No one will criticize you, but you may be asked to repeat yourself a lot (from people unable to understand you well) and you may find that people assume your language level is lower than it actually is. A person speaking a language with a good accent is often assumed to speak a language much better than someone who speaks a language with a very strong foreign accent (though accent and proficiency are not necessarily linked - I've been both on the giving and the receiving end of this assumption).

Therefore, speaking with a strong national accent (not limited to English, but any strong national accent) has low status because people may assume that your proficiency is low, or that you haven't bothered to take the time and effort to cultivate a better accent.

Having said this, there are very eminent people in Esperanto history who are known for their strong accents (Marjorie Boulton, a poet, is a good example coming from an English background). In days past, people tended to speak with stronger national accents, and good pronunciation was not as emphasized as it is today.

The younger generation - let's say 40's and younger - generally speaks with a much more neutral accent than people older than that. I think the internet has been a massive help, and low cost flights, and a cultural shift in the Esperanto community that places a stronger emphasis on speaking in a way that can be easily understood by everyone (i.e. a more neutral accent).

I wouldn't generally call Esperanto speakers snobbish. In fact, I find them accepting to a fault (i.e. accepting behaviour that would be considered totally unacceptable in other contexts, in the name of being non-judgmental).

I will never forget the first Esperanto get-together that I attended - it was in Clervaux/Klierf/Clerf (take your pick according to your language which really befits this story). I walked in with a dear German friend of mine, quasi my teacher, and my boyfriend of the time, a Norwegian. We sat down and listened to a man speaking. I thought that he was speaking British English (I know, I know, there is no such thing but we here tend to call it that) - but no! He was speaking Esperanto with a British accent. He was followed by a woman who had a French accent - and so on and so on. I was tickled pink (sort of my color any way before I moved to Florida, now I am sort of caramel). This was real fun! It was like hearing people speak in different languages but I understood everything. The bonmot of the day was: Kial ne? diras la junaj angloj. (Kial ne? was the title of one of their youth magazines at the time, I think). My husband, who started learning Esperanto about 3 years ago, has the accent he picked up from Mazi en Gondolando except that he says HOdshaŭ instead of "hodiaŭ". I don't correct him because it gives him a special persona and everyone seems to understand him.
My advice: do your best! But don't get too hung up on the pronunciation of ok, dek, naŭ. That will come with time and with contact. Dankon ke vi studas Esperanton! (Thanks for studying Esperanto).

Esperanto has a target accent that it is recommended that you shoot for, and that various people achieve to varying degrees as their own inclinations demand. You get points for trying, you lose points for not trying, but no one is keeping score beyond the current hand.

"Language police." Pfft. Mellow out.

Give it your best shot (really, do), but:
1: Don't worry if you aren't perfect.
2: Pay no attention to the imperfections of others unless they explicitly ask you to do so.

If you can only remember to do one, do 2.