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8 and 9 and scii, pronounced by a southerner

od uživatele espere ze dne 4. dubna 2013

Příspěvky: 46

Jazyk: English

sudanglo (Ukázat profil) 8. dubna 2013 9:43:33

it is almost completely subjective
Very easy to disprove that empirically.

In the case of national languages the authority is seen to reside with native speakers. With Esperanto the authority lies elsewhere - with competent or respected speakers/authors.

But unlike with the national languages arguments of systematicity or logical consistency have weight.

Chainy (Ukázat profil) 8. dubna 2013 13:20:24

espere:
sudanglo:
A pronounced English accent has low status.
So much for equality and bringing people together... Good to know Esperantists can be as snobbish as speakers of other languages.
Espere, I wouldn't worry too much about pronunciation. You'll pick the general patterns up over time. Everyone says things in a slightly different way. As long as you don't speak too quickly and you try your best to say things in a clear way, then people will be able to understand you.

By the way, I don't think it's a good idea to say that certain accents have a 'low status'. Obviously, it's good to try to adopt the rolled 'r' etc, but if you really can't then don't fret about it. A highly respected Esperantist, Marjorie Boulton, has rather a strong English accent when speaking Esperanto, but she gets on fine in this interview with Pola Radio. (listen to the last third of the programme).

sudanglo (Ukázat profil) 8. dubna 2013 21:33:06

I don't think it's a good idea to say that certain accents have a 'low status'
But the reverse is patently true - ie international accents have high status.

kefga_x (Ukázat profil) 9. dubna 2013 5:14:20

Some clarifications from your previous comment.

espere:Even in "Tiel La Mondo Iras" which apparently was good enough to be on an Esperanto documentary, his R's are not rolled. In fact, they sound like D's.
This is infact a tapped r (ɾ)! You can see it does exist in English as an:
Intervocalic allophone of /t/ and /d/
That means /t/s and /d/s in the middle of English words are turned into [ɾ]s or taps, which will then make taps in the middle of words sound like /t/s or /d/s to English speakers.

"Tiel la mondo idas" would sound much more like a "neutral" accent then "tiel la mondo iras" with a retroflex (english) r.

espere:In English, we once had "ye". Now we have "the".
"Ye" was never "the". The "y" in "ye" like "ye olde shoppe" was a substitute for an old English letter, thorn, þ, which is a "th". People used "y" as a shortcut for awhile.

"Ye" did (and still does in some dialects) exist in English, but only as the second person plural, think of "y'all", "ye" was used in the same way.

espere (Ukázat profil) 9. dubna 2013 5:43:10

espere (Ukázat profil) 9. dubna 2013 6:17:29

kefga_x:Some clarifications from your previous comment.

espere:Even in "Tiel La Mondo Iras" which apparently was good enough to be on an Esperanto documentary, his R's are not rolled. In fact, they sound like D's.
This is infact a tapped r (ɾ)! You can see it does exist in English as an:
Intervocalic allophone of /t/ and /d/
That means /t/s and /d/s in the middle of English words are turned into [ɾ]s or taps, which will then make taps in the middle of words sound like /t/s or /d/s to English speakers.

"Tiel la mondo idas" would sound much more like a "neutral" accent then "tiel la mondo iras" with a retroflex (english) r.

espere:In English, we once had "ye". Now we have "the".
"Ye" was never "the". The "y" in "ye" like "ye olde shoppe" was a substitute for an old English letter, thorn, þ, which is a "th". People used "y" as a shortcut for awhile.

"Ye" did (and still does in some dialects) exist in English, but only as the second person plural, think y'all.
I never mentioned anything about intervocalics.

If you're going to copy from Wikipedia, please be thorough:

""Ye" is sometimes used to represent an Early Modern English form of the word "the" (traditionally pronounced /ðiː/), such as in "Ye Olde Shoppe". In this transcription the letter which resembles a 'Y' is actually a thorn (þ) the predecessor to the modern digraph "th". The word "The" was thus written Þe. Medieval printing presses did not contain the letter thorn, so the letter y was substituted owing to its similarity with some medieval scripts, especially later ones. Occasionally this orthography leads moderns to pronounce "ye" as /ji:/."

So yeah, English had "ye", now we have "the". I know I'm from the dumb south and all, but...

Your attempt at humor falls flat. Some southerners say "what do y'all thank?" for "what do y'all think?". No one says "think y'all" for "thank y'all" :-|

I appreciate the few positive replies I've received. My feelings on Esperanto have certainly changed though. Here I thought it was aimed at egalitarianism. Apparently not. J'espère que je suis tort.

kefga_x (Ukázat profil) 9. dubna 2013 9:32:31

I didn't mean to condescend or be humorous at all, Espere, although I see how that could have come across.

I didn't mean to say "think y'all" but rather, "Think, 'y'all'", as "ye" was used in the same way 'y'all' is used (and nearly all dialects of English have developed a way to say 'you plural' and 'y'all' is the most widely known). Sorry for the misunderstanding!

As for the þe/ye/the situation, we've been talking strictly about pronunciation and not so much orthography. The actual word didn't change or its pronunciation, but it's orthography did. So in regards to that, you are right! It's something I already knew and didn't go to Wikipedia to learn, however, it's good to know Wikipedia basically says the same thing.

As for the intervocalic blah blah, that's technical jargon that means "in the middle of the word." When you said it sounds like a /d/ in "Tiel La Mondo Iras" you were talking about the "intervocalic d (as it occurs in English)".

You have been running into brick walls. There's a reason though, and quite a lot of people are probably going to disagree with me, but there's at least two "Esperantos". The one that's actually used and spoken and the idea of it.

At the beginning, I did my best to give you the means to be speaking the "idea of esperanto". Other's started talking about the standards that have developed and those are useful to know if you want to use Esperanto as the language it is, however you are free to ignore them! Esperanto is a hobby for the vast majority of people, so the most important thing is that you're enjoying it.

sudanglo (Ukázat profil) 9. dubna 2013 10:12:22

Esperanto is a hobby for the vast majority of people
Unfortunately true. But even among the hobbyists, engagement with Esperanto is viewed as something more serious than say learning Klingon.

EldanarLambetur (Ukázat profil) 9. dubna 2013 14:22:41

espere:[...] I appreciate the few positive replies I've received. My feelings on Esperanto have certainly changed though. Here I thought it was aimed at egalitarianism. Apparently not. [...]
It is! It should be equally understandable to all. I don't think there is a disembodied perfect neutral accent, because there is not a disembodied perfect anything. However, if we all try to approach our best idea of a neutral accent, we'll be that much closer to making sure that we can understand each other despite our native influences.

It is out of this goal of equality that everyone is trying their hardest to help you be a part of the equality, by trying for some neutral international accent like everyone else.

erinja (Ukázat profil) 9. dubna 2013 17:59:19

Hard to understand what wouldn't be egalitarian about trying to speak in the way that will be most easily understood by other Esperanto speakers.

Meeting each other halfway, right?

Esperanto speakers are hugely forgiving about errors from beginners. Effort counts for a lot, even if you don't get something quite right.

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