Mesaĝoj: 12
Lingvo: English
Bemused (Montri la profilon) 2013-majo-10 15:20:53
Nowhere in this sentence is the gender of anyone specified.
How could this sentence be expressed in Esperanto?
tommjames (Montri la profilon) 2013-majo-10 17:47:15
Note that "li" can sometimes be used in a gender neutral way. PMEG has info on that here.
Bemused (Montri la profilon) 2013-majo-11 02:22:18
Could "gepatro" mean parent singular, gender not specified?
noelekim (Montri la profilon) 2013-majo-11 08:55:52
Bemused:If "gepatroj" means parents plural.No, the prefix ge- is always followed by a plural noun and you can't say "gepatro" for the same reason that you can't say "both parent" or "two man".
Could "gepatro" mean parent singular, gender not specified?
Here are some ways of expressing 'parent singular', from eo.wiktionary.org/wiki/Vortaro_angla-Esperanta :
patr(in)o;
patro aŭ patrino;
unu el la gepatroj;
naskintino (mother-parent);
naskiginto (father-parent);
naskintino aŭ naskiginto;
tommjames (Montri la profilon) 2013-majo-11 09:07:41
Bemused:If "gepatroj" means parents plural.Ge- indicates the presence of both sexes (which is why ge- words are normally plural), and since your parent doesn't have two sexes the use of "gepatro" can be considered illogical, or incorrect. However bear in mind PMEG's comments on the matter:
Could "gepatro" mean parent singular, gender not specified?
PMEG:Tia uzo tamen ne estas normala, kaj multaj opinias ĝin nelogika kaj neregula. Tiaj vortoj estas tamen kompreneblaj kaj povas esti utilaj. La estonteco montros, ĉu ili akceptiĝos.
Such usage is not normal, and many consider it illogical and irregular. Nevertheless those kinds of words are understandable and can be useful. Time will tell, if they become accepted.
Bemused (Montri la profilon) 2013-majo-12 05:43:05
Both offer "geavo" as a translation.
This is inconsistent with what people have posted regarding use of the prefix "ge".
So how do we know what is acceptable or not?
Is it simply a case of try it and see if it flies?
erinja (Montri la profilon) 2013-majo-12 12:36:37
I'll put it this way - ... I don't personally oppose singular use of ge-, though I don't really use it that way myself. But at lernu!, we try to teach conservatively (we teach the language as it is agreed upon by everyone and we try not to include controversial and non-official elements). I would oppose teaching singular ge- at lernu, even though it is found in our dictionary. It is a slightly illogical form and it hasn't gained wide acceptance, so we don't teach it.
I would not be terribly surprised if this usage eventually gained some measure of officiality.
As a contrast, I would be surprised if other non-official elements that are floating around, such as the proposed accusative preposition "na", were made official.
If you use ge- in the singular, you will definitely be understood. There is a potential that some people would correct you, so you should be aware that singular use of ge- is far from universally accepted, even though many people do accept it.
Obviously, it is not necessary to use a singular ge- in your sample sentence because it recites "grandparents" anyway, but I know that wasn't the point of asking this.
J_Marc (Montri la profilon) 2013-majo-13 03:05:10
Bemused:In English one can say "I was talking with a friend the other day and they said that two of their grandparents had lived to over ninety."If I may ask, what is the purpose of hiding the sex of the two grandparents in this sentence? Just for the sake of shortening the sentence, or is this just an exercise? Also, surely the friend's sex can be mentioned? In English, if a guy referred to his friend as 'they', I presume he's jut being coy and is talking about a girlfriend that nobody knows about yet, and vice-versa.
Nowhere in this sentence is the gender of anyone specified.
How could this sentence be expressed in Esperanto?
How about avaro or geavaro (group of grandparents)? It doesn't seem to mean anything else. ..du el sia geavaro vivis pli ol 90 jaroj.
evanamd (Montri la profilon) 2013-majo-13 03:50:49
J_Marc:I don't think they're trying to hide the gender of the grandparents, I think it's just easier than to say than "grandmother and grandfather" or "my two grandmothers" or "grandparents on my father's side." Also, there are few reasons to deliberately hide something like that during a regular conversation; it would just come out that way. However, if someone was writing a mystery novel and wished to have the gender as a clue, then hiding it would be a nice, subtle way to foreshadow the eventual reveal. On the other hand, it could just be a simple translation exercise to help learn the language
If I may ask, what is the purpose of hiding the sex of the two grandparents in this sentence? Just for the sake of shortening the sentence, or is this just an exercise? Also, surely the friend's sex can be mentioned? In English, if a guy referred to his friend as 'they', I presume he's jut being coy and is talking about a girlfriend that nobody knows about yet, and vice-versa.
As for avaro and geavaro, they both seem perfectly fine to me, but I also think geavoj fits.
Chainy (Montri la profilon) 2013-majo-13 07:43:50
noelekim:Here are some ways of expressing 'parent singular', from eo.wiktionary.org/wiki/Vortaro_angla-Esperanta :What do you think about the suggestion that Sergio Pokrovskij makes in ReVo: gepatrANo, geavANo etc...?
patr(in)o;
patro aŭ patrino;
unu el la gepatroj;
naskintino (mother-parent);
naskiginto (father-parent);
naskintino aŭ naskiginto;