Kwa maudhui
Kujibu

Providing alternatives to illogical forms.

ya Bemused, 15 Mei 2013

Ujumbe: 14

Lugha: English

Bemused (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 15 Mei 2013 6:50:44 asubuhi

In a previous thread it was stated that the word "geavo" was an illogical word, meaning grandfather of both genders.
It was derived by reverse engineering an existing word "geavoj".
Geavoj would logically mean "grandfathers of both genders" but has been given the meaning of "grandparents".

Rather than passively accept the proliferation of illogical words, with a corresponding decrease in the regularity of the language, and increase in learning difficulty, would it not be better to introduce logical alternatives?

For example a gender neutral word meaning parent would enable the production of:
- parents (parent plural)
- mother (female parent)
- father (male parent)
- grandparent (parent's parent)
- etc.

My only language is English, and it would be arrogant to suggest that Esperanto accept English words without any reference to other languages.

For those of you who are fluent speakers of other languages, what words mean parent in other languages?

Fenris_kcf (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 15 Mei 2013 7:32:19 asubuhi

Some reform-proposals for Esperanto use the 20 radikoj as gender-neutral and introduce the suffix "-iĉ" as a symmetric pendent to "-in". So patro would be parent, patrino would be mother and patriĉo would be father.

There's also the idea of introducing new words for the female counterparts of the 20 radikoj. But in order to express the gender-neutral form, one would also have to set words for these 20 forms.

EDIT: In German we use Elternteil (~ parents-part) (or archaic Elter) for parent.

sudanglo (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 15 Mei 2013 7:57:40 asubuhi

There is a much simpler solution to the problem of naming a relative in a sex-independent way. A solution which is less disruptive of established usage.

That solution is to accept the convention that when 'ge' is used with a singular form its meaning changes from 'both sexes' (a meaning which it logically can't have in the singular) to the meaning of either sex.

So geonkloj means aunts and uncles, but geonklo would mean either an aunt or an uncle.

Note that whilst in English you can say no child allowed on this ride unless accompanied by a parent there is no convenient way of rephrasing that with a single word in the matter of aunts or uncles, you have to resort to either an aunt or an uncle.

In general, it is always potentially possible in Esperanto to bring in additions to the root stock and in the history of the language this has happened many times. However whether the addition survives and becomes accepted usage depends on the wisdom of the crowd.

If you think that the meaning of an element can't change depending on the meaning of the other elements it is combined with (or in particular contexts) then you are overlooking a phenomenon which is quite natural in Esperanto.

Compounding in Esperanto is essential pragmatic rather than algebraic.

Roberto12 (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 15 Mei 2013 9:37:15 asubuhi

What Sudanglo said.

efilzeo (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 15 Mei 2013 11:35:42 asubuhi

There are not illogical forms, because "ge" should be used just with the plural, as lernu.net says.

"Noto: GE-vorto kun O-finaĵo povas normale esti nur plurala, ĉar devas esti pli ol unu por ke ambaŭ seksoj povu ĉeesti."

robbkvasnak (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 15 Mei 2013 5:01:28 alasiri

En Esperanto ni havas seks-neŭtralan pronomon: oni, sed laŭ la ĉi-tiea konversacio ŝajne ne estas seks-neŭtralaj nomoj koincidaj. malgajo.gif

tommjames (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 15 Mei 2013 6:25:25 alasiri

Bemused:In a previous thread it was stated that the word "geavo" was an illogical word
I guess I should chime in as it seems you're referring to my post. In fact it was stated (by me at least) that "geavo" and the like can be considered illogical, not necessarily that they are. It all depends on how strict you want to be on the meaning of ge-. If you hold to the traditional meaning of "both sexes" then yes, it is illogical. That illogicality disappears though if you accept the convention put forward by sudanglo, whereby the meaning is determined by whether the word is singular or plural.

I'm something of a traditionalist myself in that I usually prefer to stick to established norms rather than pioneer new usage in an attempt to solve perceived problems in the language, so I'll not be using forms like "gepatro" myself. But I don't consider them inherently illogical and I think it would probably be a useful addition to the language if ge- did acquire that dual meaning.

Bemused:would it not be better to introduce logical alternatives? For example a gender neutral word meaning parent would enable the production of:
Assuming you're making a reform proposal, I'd say no not really, because such reforms have virtually no chance of being accepted. "Iĉismo", for example, has been around for a while now and still only meets with fringe usage. All the signs are it's not making much headway.

Benjamino (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 18 Mei 2013 3:04:28 asubuhi

Esperanto, like most languages (English, French, German, Japanese, Mandarin, Ido, Interlingua and so on), is not a logical language. if you want a logical language, you should learn lojban. personally i think Esperanto is fine. logic is overrated.

as far as new usage goes, it's simple- just use it, and if it makes sense, then you will be understood. if people can't understand it, or it doesn't sound right to them, then you're probably not really speaking the same language. there's no reason to write a Manifesto or Proposal about it.

J_Marc (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 18 Mei 2013 8:46:57 asubuhi

Idiginto might work in a sci-fi novel. (meaning, 'one who made an offspring.' I think.)

A: Kiu estas via idigintino, Equality 7-2521?
B: Uh, you mean my mom?

Bemused (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 18 Mei 2013 12:00:57 alasiri

Solution:
Introduce a combined form of she and he, this takes the place of the English workaround “they“.
Ŝi aŭ Li = Ŝli (She or he).
Use "ŝli" as a prefix for gender neutral relationship terms.
So patro (father) becomes ŝlipatro (parent), avo (grandfather) becomes ŝliavo (grandparent) etc.
No need to mess with existing meanings of words.
No need to change meaning of ge depending on context.
Chances of anyone adopting this?
Close to zero.
No matter, now I can get a good nights sleep without this nagging away in the back of my head ridulo.gif

Kurudi juu