sudanglo:

I feel a happiness speaking it that I don't necessarily feel with English, and I can express myself in some fun and different ways.

That may be a genuine experience for you Erinja, but it is a little difficult to fully understand.

It might have something to do with my experiences in Esperantujo. I have spent a lot of time speaking Esperanto in my life, from having been in an Esperanto-language relationship, to 'business' use of Esperanto through my work on this site and in ESF, to normal Esperanto friendships that happen on trips abroad and at Esperanto events. It might be that I associate Esperanto with relaxed and fun times with my Esperanto friends, with long chats where we all have a cup of tea and we sit gossiping about whatever (and the Skype equivalents of those chats - still with a cup of tea!).

Esperanto comes naturally to me in some situations; I have found that if I have mainly done a certain activity in Esperanto, my internal dialogue automatically switches to Esperanto when I think about that topic. For one recent example, I was in a very long Esperanto-language relationship, and though it has been over for quite some time, when I've been out with the guy I've been dating recently, when I think about something to tell him or to discuss with him, I frequently find myself thinking in Esperanto about what I plan to tell him. He doesn't even speak Esperanto! So there's no particular reason for this to happen, other than the fact that dating and use of Esperanto have somehow become linked in my head, and when I think about relationships or whatever, my thinking naturally switches to Esperanto.

So I don't know. It might be that I mentally associate Esperanto with a lot of happy and relaxed times, so when I speak it, I feel happy and relaxed (although I certainly have had arguments and stress and all kinds of things in Esperanto-language situations).

InsaneInter:Salution! I'm just curious: for those who're more or less fluent in Esperanto, which language do you perfer: Esperanto or your native language? Personally, I perfer the former 'cause it's much easier. English to me has rly hard grammar; the only way to rly know it is if you were raised in a highly educated or affluent home. Besides, I like foreign languages better! But when I'm fluent I won't be able to make my "I speak English and English." joke anymore ( tears)!

I prefer to speak French rather than English but, I would rather speak any language I can speak well rather than English but, Esperanto is going to be my last resort language in most countries if ever I travel abroad I will always try the native language first if I speak it at all and another natural language until I'm out of options but, will usually try Esperanto before my native tongue of English because I'd rather not use English in a foreign country as for Esperanto I will speak it when opportunities come up but, I haven't yet had those.

For that purpose, the role of Esperanto, in the view of Zamenhof, was mainly preventive...

And for that purpose he succeeded. Esperanto really is the language for ĝentileco and amikeco.

It's really difficult in Esperanto to be insulting, to wind someone up, to be cutting, to disparage, to outrage, to patronize. Even 'strangulo' in Esperanto is almost a term of affection, unlike, say, 'swivel-eyed loon'

sudanglo:It's really difficult in Esperanto to be insulting, to wind someone up, to be cutting, to disparage, to outrage, to patronize.

I wouldn't be too sure of that .... perhaps you should read this or this Lernu thread - some of the more closed-minded, insulting, and hostile environments I've ever seen in any language. A number of the postings almost certainly violate Lernu's terms of service.

That said, it's very nice (generally speaking) to be able to discuss topics with people from other countries using a neutral language like Esperanto.

Amike,

Paul

PD, apart from actual experience of observing the use of Esperanto, there is a theoretical argument supporting my opinion.

And that is that to induce some sort of negative emotion through one's choice of expressions there has to be a supporting social substrate which is lacking in the case of Esperanto.

Esperanto society such as it exists is too refined, too limited. It lacks the uncouth, the vulgar, the coarse, the crude, the aggressive, the bellicose, the petty-minded, the disdainful.

Why are certain expressions deemed insulting in any language? It is because of the values in that society and the associations acquired though usage.

For something that is not nice to say, you have to have people who are not nice.

To parody Zamenhof 'Por ke vorto aŭ esprimo estu tabua, ne sufiĉas nomi ĝin tia' (He commented that for a language to be international it is not enough to call it that)

For those of us who think that Esperanto is a practical solution to a specific problem, this feature of Esperanto matters not one jot. But those who wish to maintain that Esperanto is just another language suitable for all purposes need to wake up and smell the coffee.

"Esperanto society such as it exists is too refined, too limited. It lacks the uncouth, the vulgar, the coarse, the crude, the aggressive, the bellicose, the petty-minded, the disdainful."

@sudanglo
oi, who ya callin' refined?
watch ya mouth laddie

Not that it really matters that Esperanto be potentially offensive and/or vulgar, but in my komencanto months, La Pafklik's lyrics in "Fek' Al Esperanto" totally alleviated any doubts I had on the subject -- even though their song is totally tongue-in-cheek. And in my opinion they didn't even get close to the full potential of Esperanto in this respect either.

o..~a~ Fek! Mi tuj venas al problemo
Ĉar vomon sentas mia abdomeno
Mi parolas pri merda lingvo
Elpensita de stulta avo
Jes ja, temas pri Esperanto
De ĝi mi estas malamanto
Esperanto al mi ne plaĉas
Kaj viaj kapoj ege aĉas
Mi nur lernis esperanton por insulti vin
Esperantisto bonas kiu mortigas sin
Se vi denove nomas min samideano
Sciu ke mi endanĝerigos vian sanon

vian sanon,

Mallernu, forgesu, fikiĝu
Fek al Esperanto (4-foje)

o..~a~ Fek! Antaŭ ol mi renkontis vin,
Mi estis ja pacema homo
Sed kiam mi vidis la komunumon,
Mi ekvolis detrui ĝin per bombo
Neniam mi volos pacon, neniam kun kreteno kiel vi
Mi havas nenian spacon
En via merda fanatika sekto
Stranguloj kun okulvitroj amasiĝas
Kaj apud renkontiĝfotoj sin masturbas
Esperantio, jen dua ŝanco
Por malvenkemuloj fikkapti piĉojn
Krom la Bambo kaj verda stelo sur muro
Mi rimarkas nenian esperantan kulturon
Falsa literaturo, povra feklingvo
Ni ĉiam batalos por via malapero

Mallernu, forgesu, fikiĝu
Fek al Esperanto (4-foje)

vi komprenite

Lingvo de mongolismul'
Kiu sin kredas nova elitul'
Metu vian verdan flagon kaj verdan stelon
En vian dikan merdan pugon
Mi ne amas vin, ne ne ne...
Kaj ne ŝatus ruliĝi kun vi, ne ne ne...
En la herbo ridante, ne ne ne...
Kun blua floro en la buŝo, ankoraŭ ne
Nia rep' estas la plej bona
Kaj samtempe la plej malbona
En Esperantio, mi estas kvazaŭ sola, sola
Jes, Esperanto povras kiel lingvo
Insulti esperante estas kiel pafi per akvo
Sed la Pafklik en efekto, hey men!
Mi baldaŭ sendos vian sekton hejmen
Ha, ha, ha,
Dediĉita al ĉiuj kiuj jam kabeis

Mallernu, forgesu, fikiĝu
Fek al Esperanto (8-foje)

Esperanto is one of the more expressive languages when it comes to profaning, actually. English is at a disadvantage in this regard -- there are really only 3 or 4 "strong" expletives and one has to build one's swearing around those. In Esperanto, however, agglutination makes the possibilities abound, as yyaann has just demonstrated ... :S

sudanglo:Esperanto society such as it exists is too refined, too limited. It lacks the uncouth, the vulgar, the coarse, the crude, the aggressive, the bellicose, the petty-minded, the disdainful.

I don't know about that. Apparently all one has to do is call someone "ci" and BAM! The poor ci-dirinto is all of those at once.

Nobody would question that there are in Esperanto words that are notionally the equivalent of 'rude' words.

The question is what force do these words have?

For example, for the male member there is the K-word and the P-word. But is the K-word taboo?

What the linguists call register is a largely undeveloped aspect of Esperanto.

Any attempt to be foul-mouthed in Esperanto is more likely to be congratulated for elegant or colourful or witty use of the language than to be consider objectionable.