Messages: 42
Language: English
yyaann (User's profile) May 26, 2013, 11:33:00 AM
sudanglo:I don't know about that, Sudanglo. If that were true, then people would see no objection to going around uttering such words in formal settings. I am not entirely convinced that things would turn out so well.
Any attempt to be foul-mouthed in Esperanto is more likely to be congratulated for elegant or colourful or witty use of the language than to be consider objectionable.
In the particular case of insults, that which is deemed insulting depends a great deal upon the perceived intention of the speaker. If someone calls me non-vulgar names which are however intended to be offensive, I will take them for what they are: insults.
On the other hand, we all know cases of slurs that are used as endearing words. This is done a lot in European Spanish for instance.
So intention is key.
In the more general case of gross words, I don't want to take my own feelings and perception as universal, but when I read words such as kaĉo, piĉo, merdo, fek' or fiki, I do feel a slight acceleration of my heart beat as I would if I read similar words in other languages I know. And as I write them I also feel somewhat self-conscious, wondering if people might not disaprove. Plus I also observe that you prefered to use euphemisms such as p-word and k-word yourself. So if those really are not taboo, at least you and I exhibit some behaviours and feelings normally associated with "tabooness".
erinja (User's profile) May 26, 2013, 12:54:58 PM
sudanglo:Esperanto society such as it exists is too refined, too limited. It lacks the uncouth, the vulgar, the coarse, the crude, the aggressive, the bellicose, the petty-minded, the disdainful.I don't think you're hanging around with the right people to be hearing this in Esperanto but it definitely exists.
I have witnessed (or participated in) plenty of coarse and disdainful conversations in Esperanto, full of rude behaviour, inappropriate and crude jokes, and plenty of profanity. Esperanto absolutely gets used for this, particularly in a youth setting. I assure you that Esperanto's young speakers are not any more refined, polite, or cultured in Esperanto than they are in their native languages.
brw1 (User's profile) May 26, 2013, 4:22:21 PM
pdenisowski (User's profile) May 26, 2013, 8:30:18 PM
sudanglo:Esperanto society such as it exists is too refined, too limited. It lacks the uncouth, the vulgar, the coarse, the crude, the aggressive, the bellicose, the petty-minded, the disdainful.By the way, if you think Esperanto lacks the vulgar and the coarse, you should read Vojaĝo al kuniĝo.
I struggled with whether I should incorporate a lot of its (quite colorful and descriptive) vocabulary into ESPDICAmike,
Paul
BoriQa (User's profile) May 27, 2013, 1:36:57 AM
pdenisowski:I struggled with whether I should incorporate a lot of its (quite colorful and descriptive) vocabulary into ESPDICAnd at the end... did you?
sudanglo (User's profile) May 27, 2013, 9:45:46 AM
However despite protestations to the contrary I still think that there is an issue here.
In any language, how do words acquire taboo status - how does certain language come to be seen as unrefined?
To me Esperanto is neutral in more senses than one. It still seems to me to have a Victorian gentility.
Without an underclass, I don't see the mechanism by which it can become truly colourful.
Bruso (User's profile) May 27, 2013, 11:44:20 AM
sudanglo:In English, it seems necessary that the word is of Saxon origin.
In any language, how do words acquire taboo status - how does certain language come to be seen as unrefined?
Why are the Latinate "copulate" and "defecate" polite words, but their four-letter Saxon counterparts are not? Before English vocabulary was Latinized, both were ordinary, respectable words.
This doesn't have to involve obscenities. "Horseman" is considered less refined that its Latinized equivalent "equestrian".
I can't think of any instance where the Saxon word is considered politer or more refined than the Latin- or Greek-derived word. Not a one.
I don't know if similar considerations apply to (natural) languages other than English.
Maybe this is why it's hard to come up with Esperanto obscenities. There's no Old Saxon vocabulary for Esperanto.
Altebrilas (User's profile) May 27, 2013, 1:15:20 PM
pdenisowski (User's profile) May 27, 2013, 6:52:42 PM
BoriQa:I'm trying to keep the dictionary as "family-friendly" as possible, but a number of words from VaK were indeed incorporated into ESPDIC (and no, I won't list them herepdenisowski:I struggled with whether I should incorporate a lot of its (quite colorful and descriptive) vocabulary into ESPDICAnd at the end... did you?
). When I read in different languages I keep a list of interesting/new words and phrases I come across, and this is where many of my updates to ESPDIC come from.Incidentally, VaK is really a well-written and insightful novel, but it is definitely NOT for the prudish or easily-offended.
Amike,
Paul
creedelambard (User's profile) May 27, 2013, 7:04:17 PM
Bruso:The reason for this (to my way of thinking anyway) is that after the Norman invasion French was the language of the court and English was the language of the masses. We may perceive "defecate" as being more genteel than its Anglo-Saxon equivalent, but the meaning is more or less the same.sudanglo:In English, it seems necessary that the word is of Saxon origin.
In any language, how do words acquire taboo status - how does certain language come to be seen as unrefined?
Why are the Latinate "copulate" and "defecate" polite words, but their four-letter Saxon counterparts are not? Before English vocabulary was Latinized, both were ordinary, respectable words.
This doesn't have to involve obscenities. "Horseman" is considered less refined that its Latinized equivalent "equestrian".
I can't think of any instance where the Saxon word is considered politer or more refined than the Latin- or Greek-derived word. Not a one.
I don't know if similar considerations apply to (natural) languages other than English.
Maybe this is why it's hard to come up with Esperanto obscenities. There's no Old Saxon vocabulary for Esperanto.
Ever since English and French merged to form what we now know as English, English has been willing - nay, eager - to take in useful words from other languages. Case in point, there are many pejorative words (at least in the US) that come to us from Yiddish. Some are just dismissive; some are pretty insulting, especially if you know what "putz" or "shmuck" mean literally. That's another reason Esperanto doesn't have quite as many pejoratives and insults as, say, English - it doesn't have the tradition of borrowing from other languages that English does (Rule 15 notwithstanding). For the most part they get made up from words that already exist, like most of the ones in "Fek' al Esperanto".