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What does it mean to say you speak a language

viết bởi sudanglo, Ngày 04 tháng 6 năm 2013

Tin nhắn: 26

Nội dung: English

sudanglo (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 10:48:18 Ngày 04 tháng 6 năm 2013

From time to time you might hear someone say I speak X (where X is not his mother tongue but a language learnt in adulthood).

What does this mean? What should it mean?

To my mind it ought to mean - faced with a stressful situation, some emergency or panic-inducing situation, you can express yourself using the right expressions without hesitation.

Anything less than this and you are kidding yourself about your competence.

Mustelvulpo (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 12:40:00 Ngày 04 tháng 6 năm 2013

To say, for instance, "I speak French" is somewhat vague. It's something like saying "I sing opera" or "I play golf." It calls for more clarification- "I know a little French," "I'm reasonably conversational in French," "I'm fluent in French."

I don't think that you should have to be fluent in a language in order to say "I speak...(that language)" any more than you should have to be capable of qualifying for the British Open in order to say "I play golf." It's just that "I speak..." is not a very specific statement and more information is needed.

erinja (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 13:12:51 Ngày 04 tháng 6 năm 2013

I think that expressing yourself with hesitation is enough to say you speak something. In a crisis situation I think you need near-native fluency to express yourself without hesitation, and few people reach that.

I usually qualify it when I say I speak something though.

"I speak conversational Italian", or "I speak tourist French", for example. Or "I can read [whatever] and understand it mostly, but I can't say much or understand speech very well."

According to your criteria I speak two languages (English and Esperanto). People would be surprised to hear it if I said I speak only these two, because I read Italian or French books on a semi-regular basis and understand pretty much everything in them (it isn't high literature but it's not children's reading either). People would think I was hiding something if I could read these books but claimed not to speak the languages.

Of course I would never say I was fluent but I don't think saying you speak something requires fluency. It's a broad term.

pdenisowski (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 21:52:26 Ngày 04 tháng 6 năm 2013

Having studied many languages for many years (and having worked professionally in a number of them), I still shudder every time I get ask the question "How many languages do you speak?"

I've tried many different tactics to avoid a direct answer such as turning the question around
("What do you mean by speak?" ) or begging off ("Well, none very well" ), but I'm surprised by how doggedly people pursue this question when it's obvious you don't really want to answer it.

I also have met many people who say they "speak" a language but can't hold even a very basic conversation in it ("Where did you learn XYX? Have you ever been to XYZ? How long did you study XYZ?" ) and/or cannot understand simple statements in the language that they allegedly "speak". The question "How many languages do you speak" seems to generate a lot of boasting / self-overestimation.

Because of these, I'm very reluctant to let people know that I speak any languages other than English. In fact, some people I've worked with for many years still aren't aware that I speak (conversationally or fluently) their language.

Amike,

Paul

pdenisowski (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 21:59:58 Ngày 04 tháng 6 năm 2013

sudanglo:What does this mean? What should it mean?
If I say I "speak" a language it means that I can hold a conversation on a wide variety of everyday (and possibly less common) topics at a normal conversational speed in a way that is easily understood by any native speaker of that language. Any errors should be minor enough that they do not impede communication.

Conversely, it should also imply near perfect comprehension of the language in question : it's no good being able to smoothly produce grammatical statements if you can't understand what the other person is saying.

Amike,

Paul

Oijos (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 23:56:29 Ngày 04 tháng 6 năm 2013

I don't speak languages.

diegoami (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 00:05:59 Ngày 05 tháng 6 năm 2013

That's why they introduced guidelines to describe achievements of learners of foreign languages, like the Common European Framework of Reference for Languages. I'd say, for instance, that I speak a B2 level French, which is true since I passed the exam. There are the A1, A2, B1, B2, C1 and C2 levels, from Beginner to Advanced.

Or you could "copy and paste" what these Common Frameworks say : "I can communicate in simple and routine tasks" (A2) or "I can deal with most situations likely to arise while travelling in an area where the language is spoken." (B1)

Probably it is at least at the B2 level ( "Can interact with a degree of fluency and spontaneity that makes regular interaction with native speakers quite possible without strain for either party" ) when you can say that you can "speak" the language.

But this can also be very frustrating - I have passed a C2 exam in English with an "A", the CPE (Certificate of Proficiency in English), but still I have a lot of trouble understanding movies in English without subtitles, for instance.

sudanglo (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 09:43:36 Ngày 05 tháng 6 năm 2013

The various grades of the Common European Reference may make some sort of sense when applied to national languages, however they completely break down when applied to Esperanto.

It's a propaganda triumph that they have been recognized for Esperanto, but they actually don't make any sense for Esperanto.

An Esperantist may be fantastically fluent when talking about certain topics but deemed not very competent when some of the low level criteria of the framework are applied. Any measure which refers to communication with native speakers is a non-starter, and similarly for communication on everyday matters such as shopping or domestic life.

Inversely, many aspects of language skill which would imply a high level of command in the case of the national language are actually acquired at an early stage in learning Esperanto.

mschmitt (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 10:12:06 Ngày 05 tháng 6 năm 2013

sudanglo:Anything less than this and you are kidding yourself about your competence.
I've been learning/speaking english since 30 years now and still I'm kidding myself about my competence because under terrorist attack I might potentially lose control of my foreign language skills.

Feel free to look down on me, just because you are a native english speaker. I do know for sure that I never look down on my non-native colleagues who speak fluent german with frequent errors.

InsaneInter (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 15:26:07 Ngày 05 tháng 6 năm 2013

Oijos:I don't speak languages.
Tio estas tre komika!

That is very funny!

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