Kwa maudhui
Kujibu

halapenjo

ya BoriQa, 9 Juni 2013

Ujumbe: 23

Lugha: English

trojo (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 26 Novemba 2013 10:13:57 alasiri

fari_teon:Why not just leave it as it is? Every other language calls it by its Spanish name jalapeno. Why not Esperanto? There's no need to apply rules to it and alter it when the current word works just fine.
Esperanto doesn't allow completely unassimilated loan-words, except for proper names. To do otherwise would lead to irregular orthography, which would go against to Esperanto's mission of being easy to learn. For regular loan-words, either the existing most-common spelling can be used but with Esperanto pronunciation, i.e. jalapeno, pronounced roughly as "yah-lah-PEH-noh", or we can take the original pronunciation and approximate it with Esperanto spelling, i.e. ĥalapenjo or halapeno or similar. It is much more typical to see the former option though.

There is one other option for Esperantizing loan-words, and that is to look at the word's etymology and try to retrace it with Esperanto roots (this method is known as a "calque" ). In this case, the word jalapeño comes from the town of Jalapa where it was originally cultivated (plus a suffix). So, jalapa kapsiketo (meaning "Jalapian chilli pepper" ) would be another alternative way to translate "jalapeño". This is my preferred method, as not all people everywhere can be assumed to be familiar with the unassimilated word jalapeño. (Fewer still know anything about the town of Jalapa of course, but at least it would be clear that we are talking about a kind of pepper).

Bruso (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 27 Novemba 2013 1:54:28 asubuhi

trojo:Esperanto doesn't allow completely unassimilated loan-words, except for proper names. To do otherwise would lead to irregular orthography, which would go against to Esperanto's mission of being easy to learn.
Which is why I was never quite satisfied with the answer I got in the Esperanto-language forums when I asked about "trivium" and "quadrivium", the classical educational terms. Vikipedio uses the Latin originals in their articles. The answer I got was that these were established terms from when Latin was the dominant language.
There is one other option for Esperantizing loan-words, and that is to look at the word's etymology and try to retrace it with Esperanto roots (this method is known as a "calque" ).
I had suggested doing this: trivojo and kvarvojo.

I don't know how often these concepts are discussed by Esperantists. But Vikipedio, at least, seems to be consistent in using the Latin.

One big argument for Esperantizing them is this: what happens if these words need an Esperanto ending? "Mi lernas trivium" or "mi lernas triviumon"? Introducing an "-o" to which to add the "-n", when the -o wasn't there in the first place seems odd.

Kirilo81 (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 27 Novemba 2013 8:21:05 alasiri

Bruso:But Vikipedio, at least, seems to be consistent in using the Latin.
In no way the Esperanto Wikipedia is autoritative, so don't be bothered by their miselection.

Bruso (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 27 Novemba 2013 9:37:16 alasiri

Kirilo81:
Bruso:But Vikipedio, at least, seems to be consistent in using the Latin.
In no way the Esperanto Wikipedia is autoritative, so don't be bothered by their miselection.
Well, I can't find any other place where trivium and quadrivium are discussed in Esperanto.

It may be authoritative by default.

Nile (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 27 Novemba 2013 9:52:01 alasiri

I say ĥalepenjo is best. But tolerate halapenjo as an alternate spelling/pronunciation because some people oppose Ĥ.

orthohawk (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 28 Novemba 2013 2:16:19 alasiri

Nile:I say ĥalepenjo is best. But tolerate halapenjo as an alternate spelling/pronunciation because some people oppose Ĥ.
Not only that, but (as stated earlier) vast swaths of Latin America pronounces it with the "h" instead of with the "hx".

kaŝperanto (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 29 Novemba 2013 6:11:25 alasiri

Looks right to me. Most Americans who have not learned Spanish say it like "hallapino". I have also heard proper usage with more of the h and not ĥ sound.

trojo (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 13 Desemba 2013 5:07:16 alasiri

Bruso:I had suggested doing this: trivojo and kvarvojo.

I don't know how often these concepts are discussed by Esperantists. But Vikipedio, at least, seems to be consistent in using the Latin.

One big argument for Esperantizing them is this: what happens if these words need an Esperanto ending? "Mi lernas trivium" or "mi lernas triviumon"? Introducing an "-o" to which to add the "-n", when the -o wasn't there in the first place seems odd.
The Vikipedio editors do seem to be fans of loan-words, possibly because it makes for less work for them, not having to think through how to translate a word for which there is not (yet) an agreed-upon Esperantization. But yes, the awkwardness of inflecting an unassimilated word for case/plurality is one big reason such words should be avoided.

That said, for the trivium, there would be a number of acceptable ways to translate it, but as a practical matter, one would need to explain what it's about anyway in order to discuss it, and that's more important to keep in mind than agonizing over how exactly one should render the word "trivium" itself into Esperanto. For example...

Ni hejmedukas niajn infanojn per materialoj surbazaj de la Tri Vojoj-- t.e. gramatiko, logiko, kaj retoriko-- kiujn oni nomas la "Trivium" en la latina. La Tri Vojoj estis la fundamento de edukado dum la mezepoko.

["We homeschool our children with materials based on the Three Ways-- i.e., grammar, logic, and rhetoric-- which they call the "Trivium" in Latin. The Three Ways were the foundation of education in the Middle Ages."]

My suggestion would be, whether you choose "la Tri Vojoj" or go with a more succinct rendering, the concept would need explaining beyond just choosing a word for it since the concepts are no longer well-known outside of homeschooling circles. But the specific way to render that word is up to you.

erinja (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 13 Desemba 2013 5:21:25 alasiri

I never heard of a Trivium till this thread, so I'd have no clue what it was in English or Esperanto, regardless of how it was rendered (triviumo, tri vojoj, trivojumo, etc).

saredding (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 16 Desemba 2013 9:13:19 alasiri

Spanish is not my native language, but Spanish letters are almost always pronounced regular and phonetically. I was taught and always heard jalapeno pronounced ĥalapejnjo in Spanish. I definitely believe that a Spanish word should keep the Spanish pronunciation if it conforms to Esperanto pronunciation. Jalapa kapsiketo though is probably more descriptive of what you're talking about if many countries don't have this hot pepper. I vote for either.

Kurudi juu