讯息： 25
语言: English
pdenisowski (显示个人资料) 2013年7月4日上午3:59:06
erinja:I regularly use "rajtas" in normal Esperanto, I don't think it sounds stiff or formal at all. I use it for 'may' or 'to be allowed'.That's interesting, because I would never use rajti in that way. I've only seen rajti used in "have the right to, be permitted to (under laws or rules), etc.", not as a polite form. To me, "Ĉu mi rajtas helpi?" would only make sense if I wanted to help someone but wasn't sure if it was illegal, against the rules, etc. Ex : Ĉu la lernantoj rajtas helpi unu la alian? (Are students allowed to help each other, e.g. on an exam, project, paper).
Ĉu mi rajtas helpi? May I help? I might say this as a guest in someone's home.
rajti makes it polite to ask if you can do something
Sorry if I'm the only person who finds that usage odd, sed mi rajtas demandi, cxu ne?
Amike,
Paul
sudanglo (显示个人资料) 2013年7月4日上午10:47:55
On the other hand 'not supposed to' can be just that under an agreement or arrangement or expectation or plan something shouldn't be.
Whoops! That's not supposed to happen has nothing to do with permission or rights.
As regards 'May I ?' for asking permission, you might say Ĉu mi rajtas? or Ĉu mi povas? or Ĉu vi permesas?.
A long time agos at IS's in Germany I heard 'Ĉu mi darfas?'
erinja (显示个人资料) 2013年7月4日上午11:45:16
If you look at uses in the tekstaro, you'll find that ever since the beginning of Esperanto, "rajti" has been used both in a broad and informal meaning of permission, like "may", as well as with the more limited meaning that you mention, regarding legal laws and rules.
"...kiu mildiĝas iomete de, se mi rajtas tion diri, la “ĝentilaj” manoj kaj ioma plaĉa diketeco." (Vojaĝimpresoj, 1895)
"...kaj premitaj koroj ja rajtas esperi." (Vivo de Zamenhof, 1920)
"Ĉu ni rajtas nomi tion saĝa?", "Kiu rajtas ridi nun?" (El la vivo de ĉukĉoj, 1933)
robbkvasnak (显示个人资料) 2013年7月4日下午7:54:09
sudanglo (显示个人资料) 2013年7月5日上午11:22:40
It is rather that the 'supposition' can arise from different causes - because it conforms to some obligation or prescription or duty or responsibility, or because it would conform to what normally, or by intention or general understanding, should happen. The idea in all cases is that it does (or does not) conform.
The advantage of this expression is that you do not have to explicitly express the reason for the 'supposition'.
There remains a big difference between I didn't expect him to be here and he is not supposed to be here.
So 'atendi' doesn't solve the problem, and 'devi' already is somewhat overloaded with different uses.
The case for a neologistic solution seems strong, as I cannot believe that only French and English can express this idea with a specific form.
Sometimes, of course, 'supozita/ata' will serve eg for 'this herb is supposed to cure arthritis'. But this obviously won't do in the case of the accusation 'you're not supposed to be here'.
pdenisowski (显示个人资料) 2013年7月5日下午9:58:08
erinja:Rajti does have something to do with permission. But I do think that as English speakers we mentally join it with "right" ("to have a right to" ), which makes it sound much more formal than simply asking permission.Thanks for the pointers! While some people (obviously) use it that way, it still sounds very, very strange to me ... am I the only person who feels this way?
If you look at uses in the tekstaro, you'll find that ever since the beginning of Esperanto, "rajti" has been used both in a broad and informal meaning of permission, like "may", as well as with the more limited meaning that you mention, regarding legal laws and rules.
Looking at the PIV, the definition for rajti is
rajti (tr) 1 Havi la rajton (pri io, fari ion): kion rajtas leono, ne rajtas azenoZ; vi rajtas ricevi kompenson pro la damaĝo; la rajtantoj bonvolu enskribiĝi ĉe la notario. 2 Havi permeson pri io: post la manĝo la infanoj rajtis ludi ekstere
Tempodivalse (显示个人资料) 2013年7月5日下午11:55:55
pdenisowski:While some people (obviously) use it that way, it still sounds very, very strange to me ... am I the only person who feels this way?I'm also rather surprised to see this usage of "rajti". In my years with Esperanto I don't believe I've come across it being used this way, hence my initial (and perhaps premature) dismissal earlier in this thread.
I'm not familiar with any national languages that employ this term to colloquially express a request. Some literal translations of "rajti" are: English "have the right", Russian imet' pravo, Spanish haber derechos. In any of those languages, asking for permission with these words (in a non-legal context) would sound badly contrived.
Looking at the PIV, the definition for rajti isThis is why "rajti" seems so stiff to me.
rajti (tr) 1 Havi la rajton (pri io, fari ion): kion rajtas leono, ne rajtas azenoZ; vi rajtas ricevi kompenson pro la damaĝo; la rajtantoj bonvolu enskribiĝi ĉe la notario. 2
Here's another alternative: "Cxu mi permesatas helpi?". Or perhaps "Permesu min helpi", along the lines of the Russian razreshyte vam pomoch' ("allow to help you" -- in Russian this would be polite, though I'm not sure the direct EO equivalent is, because of the imperative).
sudanglo (显示个人资料) 2013年7月6日上午8:43:43
I'm also rather surprised to see this usage of "rajti". In my years with Esperanto I don't believe I've come across it being used this wayI think Erinja is right, Tempo. Esperantists do use Ĉu mi rajtas for the 'May I?' of ordinary social interaction. But if it doesn't seem right to you, you can use Ĉu vi permesas?, just as a Frenchman would say Vous permettez?.
Esperanto is not that idiomatic that one has to use the usage sanctioned formula or risk sounding strange (as is the case with national languages).
In any case, because of the historical resistance to the introduction of new roots there is a tendency in Esperanto to overwork the roots that are fully accepted if they can be made to fit.
Poor old 'devi' is forced to carry 'have to', 'must', 'should', 'ought to', 'duty', and 'obligation' - and possibly 'supposed to' until we can find a better solution.