apok2:
And I have another question that I'd like to tack onto this translation so that I won't have to start a new thread. When talking to a child about counting, for instance, which word would you use for "counting" -- kalkuli or nombri or some other term? For example:

"Ĉu vi scipovas "kalkuli/nombri" de unu ĝis dek? / Ĉu vi scias, kiel "kalkuli/nombri" de unu ĝis dek?" (Do you know how to count from one to ten?)
or
"Ni lernu kiel "kalkuli/nombri" esperante." (Let's learn how to count in Esperanto.)

"count up to ten" - i.e. say the numbers from one to ten - is "nombri ĝis dek", as in this good advice from 'Amerika Esperantisto' of a century ago: Estante kolera, nombru ĝis dek, sed ĝis cent se vi estas kolerega.

So you can say: "Ĉu vi povas nombri ĝis dek?" "Ni lernu nombri en Esperanto" or "Ni lernu la nombrojn en Esperanto".

apok2:You may very well be right, xdzt. I just looked at the expression "I wasn't supposed to" and thought about it happening "by chance, by accident" since it wasn't supposed to happen.

And I admitted up front that there were points of grammar in several places that I wasn't completely sure of. I look upon this as a learning experience and I hope some of the more advanced speakers here will hit me on it if I am wrong.

It's sort of like turning in a writing assignment in your English composition class. If the teacher detects an error, you've learned something (hopefully).

No worries, this is exactly how I approach these assignments, too -- though I generally avoid looking at any other translations until I've completed my own. I am still very much a komencanto and likely to get it wrong every other word. I wasn't trying to chastise your decisions, but merely foster a discussion which I felt would be edifying for all parties involved. I certainly don't consider myself adept enough in the language to offer out-and-out corrections, but I do think that discussion among students can be useful for everybody.

apok2:Each writer has his own style so I tried to say it a little differently than Miland said it for variety's sake. I did copy him in a few places. No "plagiarism" intended, Miland.

That's fine, since (as you say) you try to put it your own way, including making a selective judgment in using other people's renderings.

Thanks, sudanglo. But I am still having a problem with these two words. I just don't get a "feel" for them.

Think of it this way. Kalkuli can mean count and calculate but 'kalkuli ĝis ..' means 'count up to' as in your question to a child. Nombri means attach a quantity to (to number).

If it still seems strange, then think how strange it would be to say 'can you calculate up to ten'. What would this mean? That you can add, subtract, divide, multiply provided that answer does not exceed ten? Thus, the more plausible interpretation of 'kalkuli ĝis dek' is count up to.

The passage seems at first sight to be in simple language but there are a number of problems that present difficulty in the translation.

Esperanto doesn't seem to have a parallel structure for English's 'I wish I had ..', and the problems with translating 'supposed to' have been recently aired in another thread. There are other problems too.

Anyway, here's my attempt.

- Mi nun bedaŭras ke mi ne ĉestis por renkonti la liverinton de la koverto. Li aspektis tiel stranga.
- Kio, vi vidis lin?
- Supozeble tio ne estis atendita. Mia amiko Karlo en Salzburg raportis ke iu lasos ĝin surskribitan je mia nomo ĉe la akceptejo de la biblioteko.
- Mi pensis ke ĝi verŝajne estos liverita per kuriero servo, sed la aliaj aranĝoj estis tiel strangaj ke mi decidis kontroli, kaze ke ne. Do mi petis nian deĵoranton tie noti la precizan horon de la livero.
- Poste mi trarigardis la registrojn por tiu tago de la sekur-kameraoj kaj jen mi trovis lin.
- Kia talento, Litzi
Ŝi ridetis timide.

I have an observation to make after reading through this thread and that is that, in certain areas, Esperanto isn't very precise. For example, opinion seems to be about evenly divided as to whether 'kalkuli' or 'nombri' is the better word to use in this instance. This is weird and frankly I don't feel very comfortable with learning a language that contains so much 'guesswork', so much subjectivity.

Sorry, sudanglo, I didn't mean to hijack your translation challenge. Obviously, many of us like them and they are very helpful.

It's just that, in my opinion, language usage shouldn't be so "hit or miss." This look like another instance when the speaker is going to have to paraphrase. Perversely, E-o also has two words for 'number' -- numero and nombro -- and they have different meanings.

I suppose I am making a mountain out of a molehill here since this doesn't seem to bother other users. I just feel the need to be more precise in my speech. Maybe the key to this is "context" but this doesn't alleviate my feeling that something is "out of whack" here.

Thanks, all of you, for your help.

It is a characteristic of English that it has a lot of specific verb forms, or that meaning tends to get loaded onto the verb. Other languages do it differently. So that's the general point.

But more specifically, you will find that the opinions expressed in this thread are not confirmed by examining a corpus of the language such as the Tekstaro. There are no instances of nombri ĝis in that sense, but half a dozen hits for kalkuli ĝis in the sense of count up to.

Lernu kalkuli ĝis dek en Esperanto

Edit: in a psychological experiment on the number perception of monkeys, you might well say that they can nombri ĝis a certain figure in that they may at a glance distinguish between say a group of six objects and one of five. But I would be surprised to hear a monkey kalkuli (or elnombri) ĝis ses.

apok:I have an observation to make after reading through this thread and that is that, in certain areas, Esperanto isn't very precise. For example, opinion seems to be about evenly divided as to whether 'kalkuli' or 'nombri' is the better word to use in this instance. This is weird and frankly I don't feel very comfortable with learning a language that contains so much 'guesswork', so much subjectivity.

I wouldn't worry about that too much. Disagreements on correct form are somewhat more common in Esperanto than in national languages, as you would expect with an artificial language spoken by relatively few people, but IMO it doesn't lead to much loss in precision. Also do bear in mind that this is just one thread on one beginner's website. As such it's not necessarily going to be representative of general opinion among the language's competent speaker base.

Anyway I'd recommend you just go by the (IMO correct) definition from PIV. I.e use "kalkuli".

apok2:I have an observation to make after reading through this thread and that is that, in certain areas, Esperanto isn't very precise. For example, opinion seems to be about evenly divided as to whether 'kalkuli' or 'nombri' is the better word to use in this instance. This is weird and frankly I don't feel very comfortable with learning a language that contains so much 'guesswork', so much subjectivity.

There's really no ambiguity as to whether kalkuli or nombri is best. The PIV definitions that sudanglo quoted are very clear and explicit. Indeed, 'nombri' appears IMO very similar to the English verb 'to number':

number
Verb
Amount to (a specified figure or quantity); comprise: "the demonstrators numbered more than 5,000".

Though one mustn't expect Esperanto to mirror English, in this case it appears it does. Just in English as you have number/number verb and noun, you have nombri/numbro verb and noun with very similar meanings. Admittedly, in Esperanto you also have numero which takes over some of the definitions of English's noun-form number.

In any case, the definition of kalkuli is very explicit with little room for subjectivity. While an argument could be made for using nombri in this sense, it would only be worthwhile as an intellectual exercise debating finer semantic ideas.

Esperanto has, I'm sure, no shortage of subjectivity involved in it, especially as a primarily second language, but all languages fall subject to this. The only reason you know to say "to count" instead of "to number" in English is because you're familiar enough with the language. A foreign learner could easily become confused between these two English verbs.

sudanglo:ŝafoj k bovoj, kiujn oni ne povas nombri nek kalkuli pro ilia granda multeco (el PIV)

That sentence seems to suggest:

nombri = to count
kalkuli = to calculate

Otherwise, how would you translate that sentence?!

I might be wrong, but perhaps the essential difference between 'nombri' and 'kalkuli' is that the former relates to the counting of whole numbers, whereas 'kalkuli' can relate to both this and also to fractions.

People certainly use 'kalkuli' for 'count to ten' (and NPIV supports this), but I think I'd go for 'nombri'. However, perhaps both can be justified? In context, I think both are clear enough. But imagine the simple question:

Ĉu li scipovas nombri?
Ĉu li scipovas kalkuli?

- I would suggest that in such a direct question, and with no other parts to the sentence to add clarity, that the use of 'kalkuli' would make one understand it as 'Can he do calculations (arithmetic)?, whereas plain 'nombri' would suggest the simple act of counting.