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Translation Challenge

od sudanglo, 08. julij 2013

Sporočila: 32

Jezik: English

xdzt (Prikaži profil) 09. julij 2013 15:19:58

Chainy:
sudanglo:ŝafoj k bovoj, kiujn oni ne povas nombri nek kalkuli pro ilia granda multeco (el PIV)
Exactly what the PIV definitions say they should mean: "sheep and oxen, which one is not able to number or count due to their multitude."

An English translation of the old testament, which this example is from, bears this up as well:
And King Solomon and all the congregation of Israel, who had assembled before him, were with him before the ark, sacrificing so many sheep and oxen that they could not be counted or numbered.
Now, we really need a bible scholar to chime in to understand what this is saying for certain, but my take is that it's saying that the quantity of sheep and oxen is so large that one could neither count it up nor could one actually assign a number to a quantity so large.

Miland (Prikaži profil) 09. julij 2013 15:35:55

Personally I would use the words as Chainy suggests: the result of both verbs is a number, but nombri is for the counting of individuals, whereas kalkuli could be used for reckoning or reasoning.

However kalkuli may also have been used for "count", so this may be a good illustration of words in different languages not being exact equivalents.

apok2 (Prikaži profil) 09. julij 2013 16:07:49

I have been seeing references to the PIV and assumed that it was a large tome that you had to buy. On an impulse, I just 'googled' it to see what info it would give me. I didn't know that it was online and that you could access it with your Lernu username and password. I like it! Anyway, I think it answered MY questions about 'kalkuli' vs. 'nombri.' Here are some of the examples that it gave:

li scipovas kalkuli nur ĝis dek.(you know how to count only to ten.)
rigardu al la ĉielo kaj kalkulu la stelojn, se vi povas kalkuli ilin. (look at the sky and count the stars, if you can count them.)
kalkuli sian monon,(to count one's money).
kalkuli laŭ la fingroj, (to count on the fingers).

Count the stars in the sky; count your money, count on your fingers; knowing how to count to ten;

I think this answered my question. And for those who haven't been using the PIV online (myself, for one), then check it out -- it may help you.

Chainy (Prikaži profil) 09. julij 2013 16:57:20

A nice example sentence from ReVo:

"Vendisto de briketoj scipovas malbone nombri, sed bone kalkuli."

I would translate that as:

"A brick merchant is bad at counting, but good at calculating (the cost)."

- so, he's good at setting a high price, but not so good at giving you the right number of bricks.

Rugxdoma (Prikaži profil) 09. julij 2013 18:05:02

Miland:However kalkuli may also have been used for "count", so this may be a good illustration of words in different languages not being exact equivalents.
Yes, these words are quite different in different languages. In my language, Swedish, we have the same word for count and calculate ("räkna" ).
We have another word, denoting "give a number to each of them - not necessary consecutive numbers" ("numrera" ).

For the noun "number," Swedish have three words, where English has one. As an example:

The number ("nummer" ) written on thet credit card is not the number ("antal" ) of the credit cards. The only thing they have in common is that both can be represented by positive whole numbers ("tal" ).

Esperanto seems to be intermediate between Swedih and English.

sudanglo (Prikaži profil) 10. julij 2013 12:00:36

I would not say that the question Ĉu vi povas nombri ĝis dek for 'can you count up to ten' is actually wrong. It just seems that the historical preference has been to use kalkuli in this context.

Perhaps elnombri is more specific (by analogy with elparoli), though I can find no support in the Tekstaro for this usage.

Why is the x-konvertilo so erratic, sometimes working, sometimes not?

Chainy (Prikaži profil) 12. julij 2013 16:45:40

Two members of the Academy of Esperanto using 'nombri ĝis' (to count to):

1. Bertilo Wennergren (author of PMEG)

2. Renato Corsetti

apok2 (Prikaži profil) 12. julij 2013 18:29:20

sudanglo:
Why is the x-konvertilo so erratic, sometimes working, sometimes not?
When I want to post something on Lernu's forum, I usually type it first on a word processor (LibreOffice, in my case), using Tajpi for the capped letters. This gives me a chance to edit what I write. Then I cut and paste it onto the Lernu forum. I'm sure you know this. I just thought I'd mention it. I also run Linux Mint 13 on another laptop. Sure wish Tajpi could be installed on Linux. malgajo.gif

apok2 (Prikaži profil) 12. julij 2013 19:37:01

Chainy:
How exactly do you use Tajpi? I'm pretty certain that all the methods it provides for typing Esperanto letters are available in Linux Mint, too. For example, I'm currently using the x-system in all programmes in Linux. You just have to turn ibus on. I can give you detailed instructions on how to do this, if you want. But maybe I should write this in another thread.
While I don't usually try to install anything that's not in the package manager, I wonder if you could use the terminal to get and install Tajpi?

Maybe, "sudo apt-get install Tajpi"? I have a feeling it wouldn't work.

Anyway, next time I fire up Linux, I'll check out ibus. I'm not familiar with it.

As for how one uses Tajpi, I cannot tell you. It is a small program developed by Thomas James, a member of this forum, to type the six accented Esperanto letters in Windows. I don't know if it can be used with the Mac or Linux systems.

Chainy (Prikaži profil) 12. julij 2013 20:09:40

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Sorry, please delete my last couple of messages. I should never have got into this conversation about typing Esperanto letters. Maybe another day in another thread...

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