Příspěvky: 45
Jazyk: English
kaŝperanto (Ukázat profil) 13. prosince 2013 16:31:18
spreecamper:Indeed, he made that distinction quite clear, but the fact remains that it is better for children to learn Esperanto first before moving on to other languages. The exposure alone with a public acceptance of this idea would be enough to give the Esperanto movement more momentum than it has seen in a long time. Just as I'm sure there are more "capable" recorder/harmonica/tin whistle/etc. players now than there would be if they were not used as teaching instruments, there would be more "esperantists" if it were used as a teaching implement. A tin whistle can make music just as beautiful as can a violin, yet it is more accessible to non-musicians.kaŝperanto:I was fairly excited to see that, in England at least, there are several schools testing out teaching Esperanto to primary-school kids, and they have proven that these kids do better at learning national languages after having studied Esperanto than students that began from the beginning to study the national language. There is a TED Talk about it if you search on YouTube. One can hope that it will catch on and be effective enough to force our schools to follow suit (better test scores could force their hand). Imagine if every student studied Esperanto from elementary school to middle school...Tim Morley is not related to any political Esperanto movement. He strictly emphasized that distinction at some presentation I did attend during JES 2012/13 renkontiĝo in Naumburg/Germany. What Tim tries to achieve is that British children get interested in learning of foreign languages different than Esperanto! Nothing else! Propaedeutic intention: yes. Political Esperanto offspring: no.
More or less Tim uses similar motivation concept like that programming languages - i.e. Logo - for children try to achieve means to attract childen for computer matters.
I have never met a single person in my day-to-day life who has even heard about Esperanto, so we don't really know how many would-be Esperantists are out there who don't even know about the movement. I'm not saying we will get the fina venko in this, but it would be a very good thing for Esperanto to be used in this way.
lagtendisto (Ukázat profil) 13. prosince 2013 18:18:32
kaŝperanto:Indeed, he made that distinction quite clear, but the fact remains that it is better for children to learn Esperanto first before moving on to other languages.Children should be allowed to decide by themselves between alternative foreign language propaedeutic solutions. Children could have different criteria than adults to choose their favourite foreign language or conlang. Thats different situation than with i.e. teaching of basic knowledge of math or national language lessons.
kaŝperanto:The exposure alone with a public acceptance of this idea would be enough to give the Esperanto movement more momentum than it has seen in a long time.Okay, yes, maybe. But they should learn it by own choice. Otherwise same situation will happen like at Hungarian universities where student only choose Esperanto because Hungarian universities study conditions enforce "non-soul learning" of several foreign languages. To get an university degree they have to learn 2 or 3 foreign languages I read. Is that right? Reason could be that inside European language space Hungarian only shares some similarities with Finish I read.
kaŝperanto:Just as I'm sure there are more "capable" recorder/harmonica/tin whistle/etc. players now than there would be if they were not used as teaching instruments, there would be more "esperantists" if it were used as a teaching implement. A tin whistle can make music just as beautiful as can a violin, yet it is more accessible to non-musicians.Okay.
kaŝperanto:I have never met a single person in my day-to-day life who has even heard about Esperanto, so we don't really know how many would-be Esperantists are out there who don't even know about the movement.It depends on what Esperanto event someones will take part. I.e. at FESTO or JES events there are much less semi-patriotic Esperanto flag pride folks around than at IJK and UK ones. So, propably someones only participating at IJK and UK events would feel much more like being part of some political movement than someones who only participate at party concepted events like FESTO or JES.
kaŝperanto:I'm not saying we will get the fina venko in this, but it would be a very good thing for Esperanto to be used in this way.How I already mention above. If done by own choice I full agree with you because Esperanto community organizes lot of Esperanto gatherings.
kaŝperanto (Ukázat profil) 13. prosince 2013 18:53:16
spreecamper:I had no choice in learning Spanish starting from elementary school up through middle school, when they finally had a class which also examined some French and German. It's not until high school where we truly had a choice in what foreign language to study (as we were required to study one).kaŝperanto:Indeed, he made that distinction quite clear, but the fact remains that it is better for children to learn Esperanto first before moving on to other languages.Children should be allowed to decide by themselves between alternative foreign language propaedeutic solutions. Children could have different criteria than adults to choose their favourite foreign language or conlang. Thats different situation than with i.e. teaching of basic knowledge of math or national language lessons.
There may be other (probably private) school systems that offer a broader choice initially, but that is not common for public schools in my area. What 1st grader do you know who has a well-formed opinion on the merits of various conlangs? At any rate, if the state decides that its money is going toward Esperanto/Ido/Elvish teaching for primary school students, then that is where it will go. The public rightly has more control over public education than the individual, and these mandates are in the best interest of those being educated (at least they should be).
spreecamper:I don't know about Hungary, but requiring Esperanto in a university program is quite another issue from teaching primary school students language learning through Esperanto. I'd also say that force is a bit too strong a word to describe the situation; it is like saying that I'm "forcing" someone who is already required to run a marathon to instead run a 100-meter sprint. If they didn't want to run a marathon already they will surely take the 100m sprint.
kaŝperanto:The exposure alone with a public acceptance of this idea would be enough to give the Esperanto movement more momentum than it has seen in a long time.Okay, yes, maybe. But they should learn it by own choice. Otherwise same situation will happen like at Hungarian universities where student only choose Esperanto because Hungarian universities study conditions enforce "non-soul learning" of several foreign languages. To get an university degree they have to learn 2 or 3 foreign languages I read. Is that right? Reason could be that inside European language space Hungarian only shares some similarities with Finish I read.
Most of these students would likely move on to Spanish, French, German, Mandarin, etc. after a few years of Esperanto and wouldn't look back, but it's possible that those without interests in particular national languages would continue studying Esperanto instead. Why waste time/effort learning irregular conjugations, new vocabulary, etc. if you don't have to?
lagtendisto (Ukázat profil) 13. prosince 2013 20:01:37
kaŝperanto:What 1st grader do you know who has a well-formed opinion on the merits of various conlangs?Why it needs to be well-formed at this age? 'Whole life lasting career machine' already will start early enough. Childhood is fading away very fast.
kaŝperanto:Most of these students would likely move on to Spanish, French, German, Mandarin, etc. after a few years of Esperanto and wouldn't look back, but it's possible that those without interests in particular national languages would continue studying Esperanto instead.Yes, it depends on if that former students have or do it on their own will to dive into culture heritage of regarding language user group.
kaŝperanto:Why waste time/effort learning irregular conjugations, new vocabulary, etc. if you don't have to?To mention here 'new vocabulary' I feel concerned somewhat. Root words are not 'historical conveyed non-sense'. Personally I like to learn new vocabulary because for me every root word is culture heritage which was blended by multiple of generations before. Not to forget I don't have to know every root word. Even at someones native language there everytime some native word can show up which I never did encounter before. Okay, I'm fan of naturalistic conlangs which spread some polyglott spirit. 'Political actionism' I'm not interested in. At my personal timeline Esperanto was trigger to dive into Interlingua but I further feel related to both conlang camps. I don't know how my personal conlang timeline would looks like I would had encounter Interlingua before Esperanto. But that doesn't matter much. Both languages I like and have personal experiences to.
kaŝperanto (Ukázat profil) 13. prosince 2013 20:51:49
spreecamper:That is all very true, but I guess I was looking at it from the perspective that it is "better than what we do now, so why not?" Although it would be interesting to make a very simplified language to intentionally sound "funny" so that children would be more interested in it.kaŝperanto:What 1st grader do you know who has a well-formed opinion on the merits of various conlangs?Why it needs to be well-formed at this age? 'Whole life lasting career machine' already will start early enough. Childhood is fading away very fast.
Parenteze, what do you think of "tutvivlaborigilo" for your phrase.

spreecamper:Possibly, but if faced with learning Mandarin or Esperanto, and you don't have a particular interest in Chinese culture or business, which will you choose (as a lazy student who wants to have as much time for "cool" things as possible)?kaŝperanto:Most of these students would likely move on to Spanish, French, German, Mandarin, etc. after a few years of Esperanto and wouldn't look back, but it's possible that those without interests in particular national languages would continue studying Esperanto instead.Yes, it depends on if that former students have or do it on their own will to dive into culture heritage of regarding language user group.
spreecamper:I also find vocabulary interesting, but not everyone does. Again, I am talking about the "normal/average" person who doesn't want to study language outside of her/his required classes. I suppose I feel more strongly about these issues because in my country there are VERY few people who can speak a language other than English (if English was their native language), despite having almost a decade of foreign language study in school. I believe Esperanto could either be the second language (my hope) or it could be the catalyst for students to better study foreign languages (its intended use).kaŝperanto:Why waste time/effort learning irregular conjugations, new vocabulary, etc. if you don't have to?To mention here 'new vocabulary' I feel concerned somewhat. Root words are not 'historical conveyed non-sense'. Personally I like to learn new vocabulary because for me every root word is culture heritage which was blended by multiple of generations before. Not to forget I don't have to know every root word. Even at someones native language there everytime some native word can show up which I never did encounter before. Okay, I'm fan of naturalistic conlangs which spread some polyglott spirit. 'Political actionism' I'm not interested in. At my personal timeline Esperanto was trigger to dive into Interlingua but I further feel related to both conlang camps. I don't know how my personal conlang timeline would looks like I would had encounter Interlingua before Esperanto. But that doesn't matter much. Both languages I like and have personal experiences to.
robbkvasnak (Ukázat profil) 13. prosince 2013 20:56:58
kaŝperanto (Ukázat profil) 13. prosince 2013 22:01:43
robbkvasnak:Just a thought on my drive home today: This Saturday there is a boat parade here in Fort Lauderdale. Most of the bridges in Fort Lauderdale (we call it Fort Liquordale) are draw bridges. So there is a sign on the interstate: "Sat nite all bridges closed" - what they mean of course is that the bridges will be open (in an up-right position so that the boats can pass) but closed to automobile traffic. If I didn't have some background info here, I would sure as heck be confused! BTW the Xmas boat show is a hoot! No wonder we call this place Fort Liquordale.Hah, Fort Liquordale, must be why everyone goes that direction for Spring Break. I would say that the bridge is "open" from the boats' perspective, and "closed" from the cars' perspective, when the bridge is "up".
That opposite meaning reminded me of how we take "pain pills" to reduce, not induce, pain.
lagtendisto (Ukázat profil) 13. prosince 2013 23:22:37
robbkvasnak:So there is a sign on the interstate: "Sat nite all bridges closed" - what they mean of course is that the bridges will be open (in an up-right position so that the boats can pass) but closed to automobile traffic. If I didn't have some background info here, I would sure as heck be confused!Its road sign and probably some additional barrier will stop you to cross the river and bumping into up-right position bridge joint. English did completely fullfill its purpose at this situation. No need to adulate Esperanto above English language.
lagtendisto (Ukázat profil) 14. prosince 2013 11:42:29
kaŝperanto:I also find vocabulary interesting, but not everyone does. Again, I am talking about the "normal/average" person who doesn't want to study language outside of her/his required classes.Those you name 'normal/average' persons and who don't want to learn new root words should stop learning some foreign language because they are to lazy to improve their skills and prefer to keep their own at eternal beginner state.
kaŝperanto:I suppose I feel more strongly about these issues because in my country there are VERY few people who can speak a language other than English (if English was their native language), despite having almost a decade of foreign language study in school.I don't agree that there are 'very few' people in Germany who are not capable to speak another language than English.
kaŝperanto:I believe Esperanto could either be the second language (my hope) or it could be the catalyst for students to better study foreign languages (its intended use).I believe only languages who share some naturalistic similarities with English that languages will have some chance to go along to English like bridge languages. Probably apart English some another North Germanic bridge language will evolve and same will happen within Romanic and Slavic language area (Zonal constructed languages). Of course there will remain enough space between to use Esperanto to fill up the gaps which are not covered by zonal bridge languages mentioned before.
orthohawk (Ukázat profil) 14. prosince 2013 14:55:18
kaŝperanto:I also find vocabulary interesting, but not everyone does. Again, I am talking about the "normal/average" person who doesn't want to study language outside of her/his required classes. I suppose I feel more strongly about these issues because in my country there are VERY few people who can speak a language other than English (if English was their native language), despite having almost a decade of foreign language study in school. I believe Esperanto could either be the second language (my hope) or it could be the catalyst for students to better study foreign languages (its intended use).A number of years ago I got a job at a private school teaching, among othrer things, Spanish. There was one student in particular who was a Junior (next to last year) when I first started who had never had any inkling to study a foreign language, just never had any interest. During that first year, he "got the bug" as we say, and now, 20 years later he's a professor in a major university teaching.....................you guessed it: Spanish. We never know what will happen as a result of a "forced" class of Esperanto. Most likely nothing, but maybe there's the next William Auld out there somewhere just waiting to be introduced to our language.