Príspevky: 14
Jazyk: English
ludomastro (Zobraziť profil) 7. septembra 2013 19:10:19
Kion Ana farus se ŝi havus multe da mono?
Why is "multe" and not "multo" used here? I'm used to seeing (in other languages) the concept of an "amount" word such as "da." However, I'm more accustomed to seeing it modifying a noun.
Here's the same sentence in Spanish: Que haria Ana si ella tuviera un monton de dinero? In this case "monton" means something like "heap/pile/lot" and "de dinero" means "of money."
So, by extrapolation (not always a good assumption) I would expect the following: Kion Ana farus se sxi havus multo da mono?
Further, since "multe" is an adverb, I would expect it to modify the verb with a meaning of "had much" or "muchly had" and, I'm fine with that. However, there's no noun in the predicate to be modified by "da mono."
Please help me understand why it isn't that way.
horsto (Zobraziť profil) 7. septembra 2013 23:51:06
ludomastro:Possibly I'm wrong, but I always thought that mainly english speaking people use this way to express that (because of: a lot of). I would say:
Kion Ana farus se ŝi havus multe da mono?
Kion Ana farus se ŝi havus multan monon?
ludomastro:That's also correct, except the accusative:
Kion Ana farus se sxi havus multo da mono?
Kion Ana farus se ŝi havus multon da mono?
pdenisowski (Zobraziť profil) 8. septembra 2013 0:33:00
ludomastro:Kion Ana farus se ŝi havus multe da mono?Well, first of all, in some languages you do use an adverb here : Mam dużo pieniędzy (Polish). For a more Esperanto-like language, in French you say j'ai beaucoup [adv] d'argent. The Esperanto "da" is similar to the French partative use of "de" (Polish uses the genitive here).
Why is "multe" and not "multo" used here? I'm used to seeing (in other languages) the concept of an "amount" word such as "da." However, I'm more accustomed to seeing it modifying a noun.
ludomastro:Well, I don't think that's really the same sentence in Spanish. The same sentence in Spanish would be "Que haria Ana si ella tuviera mucho dinero."
Here's the same sentence in Spanish: Que haria Ana si ella tuviera un monton de dinero? In this case "monton" means something like "heap/pile/lot" and "de dinero" means "of money."
"Tener un monton de" is more like "havi amason da", and that's a completely different construction.
ludomastro:Further, since "multe" is an adverb, I would expect it to modify the verb with a meaning of "had much" or "muchly had" and, I'm fine with that. However, there's no noun in the predicate to be modified by "da mono."Sorry, but I'm not sure I understand what your last sentance is supposed to mean.
Hope that helps. I think the best thing in these cases is just to accept that something is the way it is
Amike,
Paul
ludomastro (Zobraziť profil) 8. septembra 2013 2:30:28
Thank you for your clarification
Paul,
After re-reading my last sentence, even I'm not sure what I was trying to say.
To horsto's point, I'm just not doing a good job of parsing it out.
Se Ana havus / If Ana had
multe / ???
da mono / of money ...
Where I have ??? I would expect a noun. Multe is an adverb. I'm aware that you can NOT use a one to one mapping but that's where I'm struggling.
As to the example in Spanish, "mucho" is the adjective form. Thus to extrapolate from your modified example, I would have expected the Esperanto to mirror what horsto said: Se Ana havus multan monon.
I'm fine with, "That's just the way it is;" however, that is the least helpful answer. I want to understand what the language is doing.
Can you say, "Se Ana havus da mono" If not, why not?
For the record, I suspect not as it doesn't make any sense. Se Ana havus monon, sure, but that's because in order to have something, you need a something - that is, a noun - to have.
DuckFiasco (Zobraziť profil) 8. septembra 2013 4:33:59
My impression from usage and what the Plena Ilustrita Vortaro de Esperanto says is that "multe" is simply a special case having little to do with its syntax as an adverb.
It can even be used on its own, "Multe en kapo, se nenio en koro", "multe povas okazi". Apparently also, Zamenhof wanted to foster the distinction that "multe da" means the things are taken together and not merely numerous, like "multe da homoj (kune)" or "multe da najbaroj". I'm not sure this distinction ever caught on. I hadn't heard about it until I checked the PIVE.
The PIVE actually recommends usage like you said, "multaj aferoj" or "multo da aferoj" since the "-e da" construction is not productive. E.g. you can't say "*plure da personoj".
In practice though, expect to see "multe/malmulte da" and to see it often. Zamenhof used it a lot, perhaps because of Polish.
Finally, as an English speaker, I feel there's a subtlety, too. "Multe da" may be equivalent to "multaj" but "multo da" feels more exaggerated, focusing on the largeness of the quantity. Like "Li havas multe da libroj" (neutral assessment) equivalent to "multajn librojn".
"Li havas multon da libroj" (huge amount, emotional assessment). I may be wrong, though!
The entry at the PIVE online (vortaro.net) is worth exploring
You can get on there with your Lernu account. 
michaleo (Zobraziť profil) 8. septembra 2013 6:38:46
Well, first of all, in some languages you do use an adverb here : Mam dużo pieniędzy (Polish). For a more Esperanto-like language, in French you say j'ai beaucoup [adv] d'argent. The Esperanto "da" is similar to the French partative use of "de" (Polish uses the genitive here).Dużo (multe) isn't an adverb. Similar to kilka (kelke), it's an indeterminate numeral. Numerals answer the question: "How much/many?". Esperanto doesn't have any special ending for numerals. But using of an adverb isn't illogical.
Chainy (Zobraziť profil) 8. septembra 2013 10:15:10
Kvantaj E-vortoj (O-vorteca uzo)
I've always taken this as a result of the fact that Zamenhof was a speaker of Russian and Polish (the Slavic influence). It only concerns a few words. As the above PMEG section puts it:
Quantitive e-words most often appear in sentences as if they were o-words in the role of a subject, object etc. In practice this relates almost only to multe, kelke, sufiĉe and their variants.
(Kvantaj E-vortoj plej ofte aperas en frazoj kvazaŭ ili estus O-vortoj rolante kiel subjekto, objekto k.t.p. Praktike temas preskaŭ nur pri multe, kelke, sufiĉe kaj variantoj de ili.)
ludomastro (Zobraziť profil) 8. septembra 2013 15:01:20
Well, it's "i" before "e", except after "c", or when sounding like "a" as in "neighbor" and "weigh." Except for these other words ...
"Multe da" and other e-words in Esperanto can take the roll of nouns in cases of amount.
DuckFiasco (Zobraziť profil) 8. septembra 2013 20:03:37
Pretty sure it's not productive, though. That is, you can't just make any old noun an adverb and put "da" after it like "grupe da". The normal form is just "-o da".
ludomastro (Zobraziť profil) 8. septembra 2013 20:06:11
DuckFiasco:Oh yeah, I forgot about kelke/suficxe da as well. There's also iom da -> iomete da.I didn't literally mean that every e-word could be used that way. Just that it's one of those exceptions that I'll have to memorize like the English spelling rules for "ie" and "ei."
Pretty sure it's not productive, though. That is, you can't just make any old noun an adverb and put "da" after it like "grupe da". The normal form is just "-o da".
Thanks everyone.