Príspevky: 24
Jazyk: English
mariposita (Zobraziť profil) 12. septembra 2013 11:44:07
I noticed on a course here that the speaker doesn't assimilate his "n" and "g" in the name "Fang" (ie he pronounces the letters separately instead of as /ŋ/.)
The Esperanto wiki page says that there should be assimilation between these two phonemes, however since I don't really trust everything wiki says, I thought I would clarify this.
Have you met/heard many Esperanto-speakers who pronounce them separately?
Do you pronounce them separately even in fast conversation?
Thank you for your input!
michaleo (Zobraziť profil) 12. septembra 2013 11:56:52
mariposita:Hello, I just have a quick questionAssimilation of phonemes can appear and it's natural but it doesn't mean that any phoneme can disappear. N can sound somewhat like /ŋ/ but you should pronounce also /g/.
I noticed on a course here that the speaker doesn't assimilate his "n" and "g" in the name "Fang" (ie he pronounces the letters separately instead of as /ŋ/.)
The Esperanto wiki page says that there should be assimilation between these two phonemes, however since I don't really trust everything wiki says, I thought I would clarify this.
Have you met/heard many Esperanto-speakers who pronounce them separately?
Do you pronounce them separately even in fast conversation?
Thank you for your input!
Mustelvulpo (Zobraziť profil) 12. septembra 2013 12:45:31
erinja (Zobraziť profil) 12. septembra 2013 12:58:35
michaleo (Zobraziť profil) 12. septembra 2013 12:59:52
Mustelvulpo:It seems to me that most of the time when these letters are together in Esperanto, they are in different syllables and therefore would be pronounced separately. (rin-go, ran-go, stran-ga). "Fang" is unusual. In this case, the sounds probably should blend together but to me it's understandable either way.Fang is probably a foreign surname so it can be prononced in another way than Esperanto words. But I don't think that combination of sounds ng is really difficult to pronounce. Since you can pronounce the word "bank" and in this word "n" is also prononced as /ŋ/.
Fenris_kcf (Zobraziť profil) 12. septembra 2013 14:02:23
Mustelvulpo:It seems to me that most of the time when these letters are together in Esperanto, they are in different syllables and therefore would be pronounced separately. (rin-go, ran-go, stran-ga).Some are not. My favourite example: punkto. IMO it's almost impossible to pronounce it exactely the way it is written. If you try to split it like "punk-to", you are forced to make a full stop inbetween, probably filled with a schwa or so. "pun-kto" seems to be easier to pronounce, but is still a struggle for most tounges.
erinja (Zobraziť profil) 12. septembra 2013 20:02:25
horsto (Zobraziť profil) 13. septembra 2013 0:16:45
Fenris_kcf: "pun-kto" seems to be easier to pronounce, but is still a struggle for most tounges.I think it's only difficult for you because Punkt is a german word and you are used to pronounce it german.
Fenris_kcf (Zobraziť profil) 13. septembra 2013 5:49:45
horsto:This might be a factor, but the real problem is that plosives can't be spoken successively if they don't follow a vowel. Try speaking the following syllables:Fenris_kcf: "pun-kto" seems to be easier to pronounce, but is still a struggle for most tounges.I think it's only difficult for you because Punkt is a german word and you are used to pronounce it german.
kta
kpa
pka
pta
tka
tpa
Do you really manage to pronounce them with one syllabe or do you put a schwa-like vowel in between?
pdenisowski (Zobraziť profil) 13. septembra 2013 12:34:28
Fenris_kcf: Try speaking the following syllables:The Polish word "ptak" (bird) is pronounced as one syllable, so it's certainly possible.
kta
kpa
pka
pta
tka
tpa
Do you really manage to pronounce them with one syllabe or do you put a schwa-like vowel in between?
I think part of why you "hear" a schwa-like sound when some people pronounce this has to do with the nature of pyschoacoustics.
If I pronounce a vowel, a nasal (m, n, etc.), or a liquid (r, l, y, etc.), I'm creating a constant series of vibrations in the air -- you can hold a vowel, nasal, or liquid and say something like "aaaaaaaa" or "mmmmmmmmmm" or "rrrrrrrrrrrrr"
But t,d, p, b, k, and g are all stops -- I literally stop the flow of air, so while I'm holding a stop, no sound is being produced at all. You can't really "hear" a stop because the air is not vibrating while I'm producing a stop. What you're really hearing is the effect the stop has on the initial frequency formants of the adjacent vowels.
In a cluster of stops you have to change your points of articulation (what touches what in your mouth) - in "pta" you move from a bilabial stop to an alveolar stop (lips together to tip of tongue touching back ridge of upper teeth or close) and in doing so the mouth will open slightly (try it) and release some of the air pressure generated by the initial stop p - this is why you "hear" a schwa, even though it's not really a pure vowel / syllable.
Note that if you did keep your lips together while you changed you point of articulation to "t" and then released the stop, you would not hear the "p" sound at all. Without some small release of air between the stops, you would not be able to hear the first stop.
Amike,
Paul