pdenisowski:

michaleo:Obydwa słowa w języku polskim tłumaczy się jako kolana. Z tym, że słowo lap oznacza tak naprawdę miejsce na którym siadają dzieci albo kładzie się laptopa. Natomiast knee to po prostu anatomiczna część ciała - kolano jako część nogi.

Both words are translated into Polish as kolana. But the word lap means actually place where children sits or where you can put a laptop. "Knee" is the part of a leg.

lap - femuroj - uda
knees - genuoj - kolana

Przykro mi, but I'm not quite sure I agree with that description of the Polish word for "lap". The expression "siedzić u kogoś na kolanach" or "siedzić komuś na kolanach" means "to sit on someone's knees" which is how the concept of "sitting in someone's lap" is commonly expressed in Polish.

Yes, in this way it is commonly expressed but it doesn't mean that someone actually sits on someone's knees.

By itself, the word "kolano" simply means "knee" and I think it's dangerous to claim that it also means "lap" in Polish. As for "udo" it simply means thigh, not lap, and I'm not personally aware of "udo" being used idiomatically to mean lap.

Sorry, but they are very different words, both in English and in Polish.

Amike,

Paul

According to http://sjp.pwn.pl/szukaj/kolano, the word kolano means «przednia dolna okolica uda i górna podudzia leżąca przy stawie kolanowym; też: sam ten staw» (a front bottom region of a tigh and a upper region of a shank lying near a knee joint; also: this joint itself)

As you can see, it can also mean lap (at least partially) and knee. But I agree that the Esperanto word genuo means rather knee and because of this I proposed the word femuroj. Both English and Polish sentences: Sitting on someone's lap (Siedziec na czyichś kolanach) actually mean: Sidi sur femuroj de iu.

RiotNrrd:ReVo confirms that sino is a lap, although, honestly, they have a really broad interpretation of lap. And, according to them, sino does also mean bosom. Basically, it appears to cover anything from around your thighs to just below your neck somewhere. Man. But, that's what ReVo says.

Oddly, the old Wells dictionary gives genuoj for lap. To me, that's pretty debatable. Your knees are at one end of your lap, sure, but they certainly don't constitute the whole thing.

I think it's best to stick with 'bosom' as a translation for 'sino'.

I think there are two reasons why some people have been tempted to translate 'sino' as 'lap':

1. "bosom" is not so widely used now, it sounds rather biblical.
2. Sometimes there can be bit of crossover between "lay in his bosom" and "sat on his lap".

Take a look at this example from the Old Testament (2 Samuel, 12. Translation found in Tekstaro.com):

Kaj la Eternulo sendis al David Natanon, kaj ĉi tiu venis al li, kaj diris al li: En unu urbo estis du viroj, unu riĉulo kaj la dua malriĉulo; 2 la riĉulo havis tre multe da ŝafoj kaj da bovoj; 3 kaj la malriĉulo havis nenion, krom unu malgranda ŝafeto, kiun li aĉetis kaj nutris, kaj ĝi elkreskis ĉe li kaj ĉe liaj infanoj kune kun ili; el lia peco ĝi manĝadis, el lia kaliko ĝi trinkadis, kaj sur lia sino ĝi dormadis, kaj ĝi estis por li kiel filino.

- You have to imagine the lamb being cradled in the arms of the man as it sleeps. Perhaps the head of the lamb is resting on the man's belly/chest (= sino/bosom). Of course, the lamb's legs might be sprawled out over the man's thighs (lap/knee). But the idea is loving care etc. This is very different to just sitting on someone's lap/knee. For the latter, the translation into Esperanto would be 'sidi sur la genuoj'.

By the way, if you look in the King James version of the Bible, the above section is translated as:

1And the Lord sent Nathan unto David. And he came unto him, and said unto him, There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor.
2The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds:
3But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter.

Chainy:I think it's best to stick with 'bosom' as a translation for 'sino'.

Which is my impulse as well, yet... we have at least two sources (CEED and ReVo) that list sino as lap. So I'm going to leave it in the vortaro. If someone else wants to remove it, they can, but sino/lap does have support from at least two more-or-less respected sources.

I mean, you make good points, and I can't say that I totally disagree with you. But, at the same time...

Maybe the meaning of sino is changing. I don't know. There doesn't seem to be anything else that fits better.

RiotNrrd:

Chainy:I think it's best to stick with 'bosom' as a translation for 'sino'.

Which is my impulse as well, yet... we have at least two sources (CEED and ReVo) that list sino as lap. So I'm going to leave it in the vortaro. If someone else wants to remove it, they can, but sino/lap does have support from at least two more-or-less respected sources.

I think you should go with your impulse, RiotNrrd Otherwise, we'll need a third vortaristo to cast the decisive vote.

At a stretch it's possible to translate 'sin/o' as 'lap', but only if you intend a very intimate interpretation of 'lap'. Imagine head nestled into bosom.

Perhaps this could be a compromise:

sin/o = bosom; (intimate) lap

RiotNrrd:Maybe the meaning of sino is changing.

I think the meaning has always been very stable. Just take a look at the actual definitions as given in Esperanto in ReVo and Vortaro.net. The only thing that is confusing things is the rather dubious use of 'lap' as the translation into English. If we stuck with just 'bosom', then there would be no confusion.

Chainy:I think you should go with your impulse, RiotNrrd Otherwise, we'll need a third vortaristo to cast the decisive vote.

Well, ESPDIC *also* gives sino for lap (along with bosom and breast). So, I think that's the third vote. The English word lap appears to be covered by an Esperanto word of a somewhat more expansive nature.

Perhaps you put things (doesn't really matter what, now, does it?) *against* or *on* bosoms/breasts, and you put things *in* laps, and that makes the distinction. I don't know. I'm just making that up. But it would provide context.

I always use "genuoj" for lap, never "sino". I think of "sino" meaning something more like "bosom".

Some of my British relatives seem to refer to children sitting on their knees, when it's clearly a situation of sitting on someone's lap (the child is not literally on the knee).

OK, I made a few edits, and noted that sino for lap is less common, and that genuoj (specifically as a plural) can mean knees or lap.

So far three different dictionaries have linked sino with lap, though, so I hesitate to remove the link entirely here. But if someone else decides to overrule me, I'm OK with that. My concern is making the vortaro accurate, not whether I'm right or not.

It seems like there's not really a word for lap in Esperanto, so just be more(less?) specific and say thigh.

RiotNrrd:OK, I made a few edits, and noted that sino for lap is less common, and that genuoj (specifically as a plural) can mean knees or lap.

Personally, I still think it's dangerous to say that "genuoj" by itself means lap.

As part of the idiom "sidi sur ies genuoj" it's completely fine, but outside of this single, specific idiom, "genuoj" absolutely does not mean "lap." Using the Textaro, here are some (fun) examples :

li paliĝis kaj ĵetis sin antaŭ ŝi sur la genuojn : he became pale and threw himself before her into (someone's) lap?

havis longajn harojn ĝis la genuoj : to have hair down to one's lap? or knees? That's about a half-meter difference in most adults ...

There are lots of other examples.

Maybe I'm just being pedantic, but with the exception of one very specific idiom, genuoj never means lap. In fact, without "sidi", even the phrase "sur la genuoj" is also ambiguous :

Mi estas preta sur la genuoj peti pardonon de vi.

Does this mean you're asking forgiveness on your knees or in someone's lap? Those would seem to be very different situations

Trying to find a word-to-word equivalence between languages is always difficult, and sometimes you simply can't do it without resorting to an idiom or phrase.

One last example from the Tekstaro:

Ŝi nur ĉirkaŭprenis liajn piedojn kaj kisis liajn genuojn. (!!!)

Amike,

Paul