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complex sentences where both clauses have same subject

de Ferdinand Cesarano, 2007-novembro-16

Mesaĝoj: 7

Lingvo: English

Ferdinand Cesarano (Montri la profilon) 2007-novembro-16 21:17:20

This is a question about Esperanto which stems from something I recall (or think I recall) from Italian grammar. So, I suppose it mainly for MNLG, who is a native Italian speaker.

If I remember my Italian grammar correctly, I believe that a complex sentence in which both clauses have the same subject can sometimes be reduced to one clause, where the verb that had been in the dependent clause is now expressed in the infinitive.

Let me try to construct a very simple example: "You say that you have the book." In Italian, this is "Dici che hai il libro." But, I believe that one can also say "Dici avere il libro."

So (if my recollection of this convention in Italian is indeed correct), my question is: is this manoeuvre possible also in Esperanto? Is it possible to express the thought "Vi diras, ke vi havas la libron" as "Vi diras havi la libron"?

Or, would this be an "Italianism", just as "vi estas bonvena" is a known Anglicism?

Dankon pro via konsiderado!

mnlg (Montri la profilon) 2007-novembro-16 21:47:52

Hi, thank you for your message.

No, you can't use "dir/i" in that way in Esperanto. The Italian form would be "dici di avere il libro", which would be most probably translated directly into Esperanto the way you put it, but it wouldn't be considered correct. "Vi estas bonvena", on the other hand, is perfectly correct, but it just doesn't express the same meaning of its English counterpart.

With other verbs this can be done, or at least I have seen it in use; e.g., "mi decidis ke mi venos" can be said as "mi decidis veni". However, this construction is valid for English as well: "I decided to come" (and again in Italian, "decisi di venire").

Perhaps a more experienced speaker can provide a general rule, if there is one. I suspect it depends on the verb, though.

Frankouche (Montri la profilon) 2007-novembro-16 21:49:21

My god! No no no! I thought our both countries were friends again !

It can't be an "Italianism" because i can say it in french !! sal.gif sal.gif

- Tu dis avoir le livre

If you call this construction "frenchism", i will agree you rideto.gif

I'm not sure it could be well understanding by some languages if i translate it in eo, so i prefer to use a relative.

EL_NEBULOSO (Montri la profilon) 2007-novembro-23 10:30:01

I think this kind of shortening a sentence is possible in many languages:

In German:

Ich entschloss mich, dass ich kommen wuerde (werde). = Ich entschloss mich, zu kommen.

Gerald

edmoreira (Montri la profilon) 2007-novembro-23 19:04:59

Maybe it's a romance language thing, since you can do it in Portuguese and in Spanish.

dices que me quieres / dices quererme

você diz que gosta de mim / você diz gostar de mim

So, is it verb dependent in Eo?

Cheers

PS but then again, there are similar constructions in many other languages okulumo.gif right?

claytmp (Montri la profilon) 2022-decembro-19 22:51:43

I think you should need to follow this instruction.
Esperanto does not allow for the usage of "dir/i" in that manner. The right translation into Esperanto, as you put it, would be "dici di avere il libro," but it wouldn't be regarded as being the correct form of Italian. The meaning of "Vi estas bonvena" isn't quite the same as that of its English equivalent, although being entirely right.
Thanks

Altebrilas (Montri la profilon) 2022-decembro-20 13:05:43

Mi ne scias cxu Esperanto multe evoluis dum 15 jaroj.

Kun kiaj verboj oni povas uzi infinitivon anstataux "ke..."?

Interesa verbo estas "proponi". Kiujn formojn oni taksas korektaj ?

1. Petro proponas al Maria helpi sxin.
2. Petro proponas al Maria uzi lian auxton
3. Petro proponas al Maria iri kune al kinejo

Se jes, cxu la tri infinitivaj subfrazoj povas esti ligitaj per "kaj"?

Reen al la supro