complex sentences where both clauses have same subject
di Ferdinand Cesarano, 16 novembre 2007
Messaggi: 7
Lingua: English
Ferdinand Cesarano (Mostra il profilo) 16 novembre 2007 21:17:20
If I remember my Italian grammar correctly, I believe that a complex sentence in which both clauses have the same subject can sometimes be reduced to one clause, where the verb that had been in the dependent clause is now expressed in the infinitive.
Let me try to construct a very simple example: "You say that you have the book." In Italian, this is "Dici che hai il libro." But, I believe that one can also say "Dici avere il libro."
So (if my recollection of this convention in Italian is indeed correct), my question is: is this manoeuvre possible also in Esperanto? Is it possible to express the thought "Vi diras, ke vi havas la libron" as "Vi diras havi la libron"?
Or, would this be an "Italianism", just as "vi estas bonvena" is a known Anglicism?
Dankon pro via konsiderado!
mnlg (Mostra il profilo) 16 novembre 2007 21:47:52
No, you can't use "dir/i" in that way in Esperanto. The Italian form would be "dici di avere il libro", which would be most probably translated directly into Esperanto the way you put it, but it wouldn't be considered correct. "Vi estas bonvena", on the other hand, is perfectly correct, but it just doesn't express the same meaning of its English counterpart.
With other verbs this can be done, or at least I have seen it in use; e.g., "mi decidis ke mi venos" can be said as "mi decidis veni". However, this construction is valid for English as well: "I decided to come" (and again in Italian, "decisi di venire").
Perhaps a more experienced speaker can provide a general rule, if there is one. I suspect it depends on the verb, though.
Frankouche (Mostra il profilo) 16 novembre 2007 21:49:21
It can't be an "Italianism" because i can say it in french !!
- Tu dis avoir le livre
If you call this construction "frenchism", i will agree you
I'm not sure it could be well understanding by some languages if i translate it in eo, so i prefer to use a relative.
EL_NEBULOSO (Mostra il profilo) 23 novembre 2007 10:30:01
In German:
Ich entschloss mich, dass ich kommen wuerde (werde). = Ich entschloss mich, zu kommen.
Gerald
edmoreira (Mostra il profilo) 23 novembre 2007 19:04:59
dices que me quieres / dices quererme
você diz que gosta de mim / você diz gostar de mim
So, is it verb dependent in Eo?
Cheers
PS but then again, there are similar constructions in many other languages right?
claytmp (Mostra il profilo) 19 dicembre 2022 22:51:43
Esperanto does not allow for the usage of "dir/i" in that manner. The right translation into Esperanto, as you put it, would be "dici di avere il libro," but it wouldn't be regarded as being the correct form of Italian. The meaning of "Vi estas bonvena" isn't quite the same as that of its English equivalent, although being entirely right.
Thanks
Altebrilas (Mostra il profilo) 20 dicembre 2022 13:05:43
Kun kiaj verboj oni povas uzi infinitivon anstataux "ke..."?
Interesa verbo estas "proponi". Kiujn formojn oni taksas korektaj ?
1. Petro proponas al Maria helpi sxin.
2. Petro proponas al Maria uzi lian auxton
3. Petro proponas al Maria iri kune al kinejo
Se jes, cxu la tri infinitivaj subfrazoj povas esti ligitaj per "kaj"?