Mesaĝoj: 14
Lingvo: English
sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2013-oktobro-30 11:24:59
How would you distinguish these?
In a book I am reading there is a passage in which the stairs (ŝtuparo) stop in a hotel on the 2nd floor but there is access to the loft via a 'fiksa ŝtupetaro' leading to a trapdoor. What picture does this conjure for you?
A ŝtupetaro might be a ladder. But if so why not say 'eskalo' to avoid the mind-twisting contrast between a ŝtuparo and a ŝtupetaro in the same sentence. And a ŝtupetaro might be a narrow or short flight of steps, might it not? Think access to a train or tram.
En ĉiu halto la vagonon atakis furiozanta homamaso kaj la konduktoro kriegis: “La lokoj mankas! La vagono forveturas!” Neniu eliradis. Kaj nur postlonge la homo estis levita sur la supran ŝtupeton per puŝo demalsupro - el Metropoliteno.
Nile (Montri la profilon) 2013-oktobro-31 02:29:59
noelekim (Montri la profilon) 2013-oktobro-31 03:16:03
sudanglo: In a book I am reading there is a passage in which the stairs (ŝtuparo) stop in a hotel on the 2nd floor but there is access to the loft via a 'fiksa ŝtupetaro' leading to a trapdoor. What picture does this conjure for you?It sounds like one of these: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attic_ladder , that's to say an attic ladder or loft ladder - subtegmenta eskalo.
sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2013-oktobro-31 11:31:55
The distinction between a ŝtupetaro and a ŝtupareto can be made theoretically but it is not an entirely comfortable one.
It is at least inelegant to say something like that the ŝtuparo ĉesis je la dua etaĝo sed fiksa ŝtupetaro kondukis al la subtegmento.
If only more Esperanto translations were professionally edited before publication! This is not an isolated example from this book where the reader has to stop to puzzle out the likely intended meaning.
In any case how do you distinguish between stairs and steps?
Nile (Montri la profilon) 2013-oktobro-31 11:47:41
erinja (Montri la profilon) 2013-oktobro-31 13:11:48
If it's just a couple steps to enter someone's house I call them steps, and I would also call them "ŝtupoj" in Esperanto ("supreniru tri ŝtupojn por eniri mian domon" ). If it's a lot of steps together, then it's a ŝtuparo for me, period, or a staircase in Esperanto. It's a group of steps - hard to imagine how a group of steps carved into a mountain should have a different name than a manufactured group of steps to get into the second floor of a building.
Rejsi (Montri la profilon) 2013-oktobro-31 15:22:56
sudanglo:Yes, but the translator uses the term 'fiksa ŝtupetaro'. Is this a flight of steps, an exposed staircase, or a ladder bolted to the wall?I'm not quite sure where the confusion is arising. Didn't you visit noelekim's link? It is a ladder that is attached to a trapdoor. The term "fiksa" is used because you can't remove the ladder (as far as I know).
The distinction between a ŝtupetaro and a ŝtupareto can be made theoretically but it is not an entirely comfortable one.Why is it inelegant? It makes sense. You just have to read it carefully.
It is at least inelegant to say something like that the ŝtuparo ĉesis je la dua etaĝo sed fiksa ŝtupetaro kondukis al la subtegmento.
ŝtupo = step
ŝtupeto = smaller version of a step = rung
ŝtuparo = group of steps = staircase
ŝtupetaro = group of rungs = ladder
ŝtupareto = small staircase = something like mini stairs or a step ladder?
sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2013-oktobro-31 22:05:28
I have never said "a flight of steps" in my life.That may be so Erinja, but it doesn't mean that such a thing does not exist.
Googling images of steps shows several images in which flights of steps can be seen (the run of steps to the subsequent unstepped flat section is the flight of steps - the steps may or may not change direction at this point).
Anyway there's a difference between steps and stairs, and that distinction seems to be blurred in Esperanto. As Rejsi illustrates with his definition:
ŝtuparo = group of steps = staircase
(Of course there is a distinction also between the staircase and the stairs.)
Come to think of it there is also the problem of expressing the notion of a flight - whether of steps or stairs. Is this also to be a ŝtuparo.
"Where did you find the body sergeant?" "It's two flights up, sir."
Incidentally, I'm not sure that a hinged or retractable loft ladder is in any proper sense 'fiksa'.
noelekim (Montri la profilon) 2013-novembro-01 04:18:35
sudanglo:Du etaĝojn supre, sinjoro.
"It's two flights up, sir."
sudanglo:Maybe it's one of these, ŝtuparo kondukanta al subtegmento.
Incidentally, I'm not sure that a hinged or retractable loft ladder is in any proper sense 'fiksa'.
sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2013-novembro-01 11:46:49
Du etaĝojn supre, sinjoro.That would be fine, perhaps if we were talking about stairs. But won't do for steps.
In Ramsgate on the East cliff there are concrete steps projecting out from the cliff and leading down to the promenade which consist of many flights in zig-zag configuration. Standing at the bottom one would not see the location of the body/murder weapon. The notion of etaĝo would not apply, I think.
Anyway, I think part of what is bugging me is the question of whether ŝtupeto is an Esperanto idiom like rideto. Rideto seems to be fossilised as smile and can't mean a little/quiet laugh or chuckle. Though ridego is a loud or prolonged laugh or guffaw.
Can ŝtupeto only mean a rung? Or can it mean a step that is reduced in some way in breadth or rise? The tiled area in front of my front door is slightly raised above pavement level - can this be a ŝtupeto? Is ŝtupetaro always a ladder, since ŝtupeto can only be a rungo?
And what about a stepladder?