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Kia or Kio?

от ludomastro, 11 января 2014 г.

Сообщений: 23

Язык: English

ludomastro (Показать профиль) 11 января 2014 г., 16:33:16

Recently, I've been trying to translate my thoughts as well as what my family says into Esperanto as practice. However, I ran into something that made me doubt myself the other night.

My daughter said, "What color was your dog?" She was asking about a pet dog I had in childhood. I realized that I could respond to her question with:
"Snowball estis blanka Germana Pastoro." (I'm not sure that's the right word for the dog breed but I'm OK with some mistakes.
"Snowball was a white German Sheppard."

However, I tripped over her question.
"Cxu via hundo estis kia/kio koloro?"
"What color was your dog?"

My gut was saying "kio" but then I started thinking about "kia" as the adjective would be the appropriate form. Then I started doubting my overall comprehension.

Help with explanation would be greatly appreciated.

RiotNrrd (Показать профиль) 11 января 2014 г., 17:01:27

For me, the best way to remember is to recall that o-vortoj cannot modify* other o-vortoj.

"Kio" is also an o-vorto.

Therefore "kio koloro" won't work. The entire form "kio [o-vorto]" is incorrect.

"Kio estis la koloro..." will work, but "kio koloro" not so much.

Also, "kio" refers only to unnamed things, and so tends to sit by itself. If you say "kio koloro" you are naming the thing (i.e., la koloro), and so is another indication that it isn't correct. "Kiu koloro" ("which color" ) would be the alternative to "kia koloro" ("what kind of color" ).

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* I'm not entirely sure "modify" is the correct word here, but I can't think of a better one. My linguistic vocabulary is somewhat lacking. Basically, you can't have two in a row like that.

efilzeo (Показать профиль) 11 января 2014 г., 17:39:30

To me "kio" sounds better, because she specified that she was talking about colors, so you had a set of options to choose from and because of it "kio el ili?".

michaleo (Показать профиль) 11 января 2014 г., 18:40:02

There is no English equivalent of kia. Try to translate for example Kia li estas? You'll probably have to write something like What kind of person is he?
Literal translation of your sentence is quite funny:
Kio koloro estis via hundo? (grammatically incorrect)
Kiu koloro estis via hundo? (Which color was your dog?)
I propose: Kia estis la koloro de via hundo?

michaleo (Показать профиль) 12 января 2014 г., 0:08:48

For me, the best way to remember is to recall that o-vortoj cannot modify* other o-vortoj.

"Kio" is also an o-vorto.

Therefore "kio koloro" won't work. The entire form "kio [o-vorto]" is incorrect.
Yes, David K. Jordan in Being Colloquial in Esperanto (link) writes:
Note that a structure is possible in English but not in Esperanto: the piling up of a series of nouns each of which modifies one or more of the ones that follow: “Orange County gun control activist hater” is meaningful in English, but consists entirely of nouns. In Esperanto it is essential to show the relationship among these elements. And importantly, no free-standing noun ever modifies the noun that follows it.
So I suggest considering what “Orange County gun control activist hater” really means. Because it can mean many things.

erinja (Показать профиль) 12 января 2014 г., 1:48:39

efilzeo:To me "kio" sounds better, because she specified that she was talking about colors, so you had a set of options to choose from and because of it "kio el ili?".
I think you accidentally have it reversed. "Kiu" is the usual word for choosing from a list, from a set of options, so "kiu el ili" (English: which one of them) is the obvious choice. I can't actually think of a case, off-hand, where *"kio el ili" (English: what of them) would be correct.

noelekim (Показать профиль) 12 января 2014 г., 3:27:39

ludomastro:
...................
However, I tripped over her question.
"Cxu via hundo estis kia/kio koloro?"
"What color was your dog?"

My gut was saying "kio" but then I started thinking about "kia" as the adjective would be the appropriate form. Then I started doubting my overall comprehension.
As another contributor has said, "kiu" (which of two or more possibilities) is the right word.

Everyone understands "kiu koloro estis via hundo?" but it's also quite common to see "kiukolora estas ...?" for "what color is ...?"

michaleo (Показать профиль) 12 января 2014 г., 6:23:51

noelekim:
ludomastro:
...................
However, I tripped over her question.
"Cxu via hundo estis kia/kio koloro?"
"What color was your dog?"

My gut was saying "kio" but then I started thinking about "kia" as the adjective would be the appropriate form. Then I started doubting my overall comprehension.
As another contributor has said, "kiu" (which of two or more possibilities) is the right word.

Everyone understands "kiu koloro estis via hundo?" but it's also quite common to see "kiukolora estas ...?" for "what color is ...?"
I don't know whether everyone understands Kiu koloro estis via hundo? It rather looks like a calque from English and means something else. You would ask about color which was your dog.

Rikat (Показать профиль) 12 января 2014 г., 7:27:58

Noelekim's response seems correct to me. I also like this short article by Don Harlow: Kiu vs Kia

sudanglo (Показать профиль) 12 января 2014 г., 12:25:02

Does everybody agree that you can say Kio estas via nomo? I seem to recall that this appears at an early stage in one of the well-known beginners courses.

Kia estas via nomo seems to ask the question with a different nuance, and the answer John or Terry doesn't quite meet the question. The question seems to require an adjectival response.

Kiu estas via nomo carries the idea of selection from a group.

The natural answer to Kio estis la koloro de via hundo is perhaps nigra rather than nigro, and therein lies the rub. Because the answer is not an o-type thing, doubts arise.

However konsider nigra to be short for nigra koloro rather than the quality of blackness and the problem seems to disappear.

Kio/kiuj estas la koloroj de la ĉielarko. How would you answer that? Ruĝo oranĝo flavo ... or ruĝa oranĝa flava ...

Kio estas la temperaturo en London? Here the answer could be 30 degrees, or too damned hot, appalling, etc.

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