Сообщений: 10
Язык: English
GreenZubat (Показать профиль) 17 января 2014 г., 7:24:43
1.) When "-s" is tacked on, every vowel has a corresponding verb form except "e". For example:
- a --> -as = present tense
- i --> -is = past (preterite) tense
- o --> -os = future tense
- u --> -us = conditional mood
- e --> -es = ... nothing?
2.) Similarly, when I was reading about verbal participles, I wondered what it would mean if you used "-unt/-ut" as a conditional participle (similar to the present, past and future participles), and by extension of the above, "-ent/et" e.g. mi estas kaptunta, or mi estis videta. I feel like it could make sense, so I see no reason for the asymmetry--thoughts?
donar (Показать профиль) 17 января 2014 г., 8:56:46
GreenZubat:Hey, so, whilst I was learning the many forms of Esperanto verbs I noticed two things that I found very odd:I don't understand your table. those forms are not mutual dependent.
1.) When "-s" is tacked on, every vowel has a corresponding verb form except "e". For example:I find this very counter-intuitive for a language that is so regular otherwise, and I feel like it must mean something, and perhaps I've just overlooked it (instinctively, I would say an extra mood, since all the tenses are filled).
- a --> -as = present tense
- i --> -is = past (preterite) tense
- o --> -os = future tense
- u --> -us = conditional mood
- e --> -es = ... nothing?
-a adjective / -as verb in present form
-i verb infinitive / -is verb in past tense
-o noun / -os verb in future tense
-u verb in imperative / -us verb in conditionnal form
-e adjective as adverb / -es should describe what?
2.) Similarly, when I was reading about verbal participles, I wondered what it would mean if you used "-unt/-ut" as a conditional participle (similar to the present, past and future participles), and by extension of the above, "-ent/et" e.g. mi estas kaptunta, or mi estis videta. I feel like it could make sense, so I see no reason for the asymmetry--thoughts?please give an example of how to use unt/ut.
What about ent/et? -e marks an adverb, passive forms make only sence to verbs, not to adverbs, not to adjectives. "beautiful" is neither active nor passive, but it's descriptive
Kirilo81 (Показать профиль) 17 января 2014 г., 9:22:19
BTW: Zamenhof had an imperfect in -es in Proto-Esperanto, but didn't take it over to the final language. For good reasons, noone ever felt the need for it.
willem44 (Показать профиль) 17 января 2014 г., 9:51:03
Upd: There is also another suffix "-end-" which means obligation, and there are others, which I forgot to mention: -ebl-, -em-, -er-, -ec-.
sudanglo (Показать профиль) 17 января 2014 г., 11:09:01
If -es were going to be temporal then it would have to be subdivision of one of the above and would then stand out as odd, perhaps.
If -es were going to be modal or related to an attitudinal stance what would you suggest for it?
By the way, the labelling of -as, -is and -os as present past and future doesn't quite reflect the actual usage.
The time can be relative rather than absolute. Vi diris ke li venos antaŭ mia foriro. It is correct to use -os but reference is to the past (vi jam foriris).
And -as is commonly used when it does not refer to what is happening now. Tiuj, kiuj fumas, mortas pli junaj. And ĉu vi fumas? might be a question as to whether you are a fumanto, or if I am on the telephone and can't see you, could be a question about what you are doing.
Finally, -us might be better labelled as conjectural (or not-indicative in the grammatical sense) rather than conditional, since many uses of -us do not involve conditions - ĉu vi ŝatus kafon?, ĉu vi povus min helpi?, kiu protestus kontraŭ tio?
willem44 (Показать профиль) 17 января 2014 г., 12:52:55
kaŝperanto (Показать профиль) 17 января 2014 г., 15:04:39
GreenZubat:Check out this section in Wikipedia's Esperanto Grammar page. Conditional participles are already unofficially in use. I think the best example they have is a lumberjack cutting down trees. If he finds the tree to be spiked, he is then "hakunta" and the tree "hakuta". Very roughly, the lumberjack is "in a state where he would have chopped" and the tree is "in a state where it would have been cut down". But there is no tense associated with this, so he very likely could be talking about the tree up on a mountain, which he would chop if he could reach it.
2.) Similarly, when I was reading about verbal participles, I wondered what it would mean if you used "-unt/-ut" as a conditional participle (similar to the present, past and future participles), and by extension of the above, "-ent/et" e.g. mi estas kaptunta, or mi estis videta. I feel like it could make sense, so I see no reason for the asymmetry--thoughts?
Another subject that might interest you is the compound tense, also in the Wikipedia article.
About '-es', I think enough issues have already been pointed out to show why it doesn't exist. Another reason that hasn't been mentioned is that '-es' is the possessive in the table words:
"Kies domon vi farbis?" => "Who's house did you paint?"
Although this would be distinguishable from a verbal ending, it wouldn't be pretty.
sudanglo (Показать профиль) 17 января 2014 г., 20:17:12
Re: the Wikipedia link above. Kiplings The Man who would be King is la viro kiu deziris esti reĝo
robbkvasnak (Показать профиль) 17 января 2014 г., 21:28:56
makis (Показать профиль) 18 января 2014 г., 4:09:04