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What's the difference?

viết bởi sudanglo, Ngày 21 tháng 1 năm 2014

Tin nhắn: 17

Nội dung: English

sudanglo (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 16:39:19 Ngày 27 tháng 1 năm 2014

A passive requires a subject to have some action performed upon them
If that is the test of a true passive then in:

Iom post iom la libro iĝis vendata tra la mondo

tiu esprimo iĝas pli kaj pli uzata en moderna Esperanto

we have a true passive - oni vendis la libron and oni uzas la esprimon. And in both cases one could insert an agent - by all good bookshops, by trendy young people, respectively.

Esti isn't an auxiliary verb in Esperanto like 'do' in English.

Did you .. can only be followed by a verb (or an adverb then a verb), but in Esperanto Ĉu vi estis ... can equally be followed by an ordinary adjective and a participle (in its-a form).

tommjames (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 09:31:18 Ngày 28 tháng 1 năm 2014

Well yes, you could reword it to make it into a passive, but the point is you didn't.

I guess you could argue that those phrases are "passive" in some sense, since they contain "passive" participles. But simply containing a passive participle adjective does not automatically make it a phrase in the passive voice, IMO.

La libro estis vendita - passive
La libro iĝis vendata - active

sudanglo (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 12:07:28 Ngày 28 tháng 1 năm 2014

I sort of half grasp the point that you are making Tom, which I suppose is that just because a particle is used in a sentence, that doesn't mean the sentence includes a passive.

Anyway, perhaps all the talk of auxiliary verbs and passives is irrelevant. The only criterion of importance is whether iĝi + participle makes sense - does not include some internal contradiction.

Iĝi -ata, and iĝi -ota, don't seem to me to pose any problem. The question then is whether there is any tension in meaning between iĝi and -ita.

It does seem a little odd to say La pordo iĝis fermita. The door is either fermita or aperta and perhaps this all or nothing aspect conflicts with iĝi that requires something more than an instantaneous state change. Or perhaps iĝi conflicts with antaŭtempa sense of -ita. There is clearly a problem in saying la pordo iĝis jam fermita.

Li mortiĝas de kancero could never mean li iĝas mortinta de kancero.

tommjames (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 12:20:57 Ngày 28 tháng 1 năm 2014

sudanglo:The only criterion of importance is whether iĝi + participle makes sense - does not include some internal contradiction.
I'm pretty sure it makes sense. This form is very common, so it would be a sorry state of affairs if it didn't!

Searching tekstaro with \b\w+iĝ\VF \w+[ia]taj?\b gets lots of results by the way.

As to your question in the first post, I don't see much difference between iĝis fermita and fermiĝis, but I would expect that in most cases if someone chose the former phrase they'd be emphasising the process rather than the completion.

sudanglo (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 14:18:20 Ngày 28 tháng 1 năm 2014

Yes, but that serĉ-formulo finds instances of troviĝi, fariĝi, vidiĝi etc + participle and also such verbs + ordinary adjective..

It doesn't find iĝi (per si mem) + participle.

tommjames (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 14:45:23 Ngày 28 tháng 1 năm 2014

You're right, sorry.

Use this one for iĝ alone: \biĝ\VF \w+[ia]taj?\b
and this one for iĝ alone or with a verb (troviĝ', fariĝ', etc): \b\w*iĝ\VF \w+[ia]taj?\b

sudanglo (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 13:22:10 Ngày 29 tháng 1 năm 2014

How curious, Tom. I didn't notice that earlier but most hits for igxi + participle come from 1991 or later and many come from the same publishing house, 'Sezonoj' or from FEL.

Looking at the sources, usage of igxi +participle does seem to be connected in some way to languages that have two choices for helpverbo for the passive.

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