A thread in the Esperanto Forums on iĝi plus participles prompts me to ask what difference you see between:

iĝis vendita and vendiĝis, or iĝis fermita and fermiĝis.

Is the iĝi + participle just a Germanismo? Or perhaps that should be ĝermanismo.

I would be glad if this topic could be discussed within the original thread, for several reasons.
One who doesn't master Esperanto well enough to do this is not qualified to comment on such a subtle difference anyway, IMHO.

sudanglo:A thread in the Esperanto Forums on iĝi plus participles prompts me to ask what difference you see between:

iĝis vendita and vendiĝis, or iĝis fermita and fermiĝis.

Is the iĝi + participle just a Germanismo? Or perhaps that should be ĝermanismo.

"Iĝis vendita / fermita," etc., leaves me aware that the action is completed at whatever the time point is, but leaves me wondering by whom or what. The German "wurde verkauft / geschlossen" is probably the German equivalent. The German verb "werden" by itself means "to become (iĝi)," but as a helping verb builds the passive voice when used with a past participle (or the future tense when teamed with an infinitive, which seems irrelevant here). In German the question of by whom or what which lingers unanswered in the Esperanto would be answered by adding "von + person or thing."

"Vendiĝis / fermiĝis" leaves me aware of its state and does not make me wonder about how it came to be that way. That type of construction in German is through making the verb reflexive (Es verkaufte sich (---> It sold) / Die Tür schloss sich (--->The door closed). I can see it could easily be at least a ĝermanismo.

I wonder if other languages do the same?

L

jkph00:

sudanglo:A thread in the Esperanto Forums on iĝi plus participles prompts me to ask what difference you see between:

iĝis vendita and vendiĝis, or iĝis fermita and fermiĝis.

Is the iĝi + participle just a Germanismo? Or perhaps that should be ĝermanismo.

"Iĝis vendita / fermita," etc., leaves me aware that the action is completed at whatever the time point is, but leaves me wondering by whom or what. The German "wurde verkauft / geschlossen" is probably the German equivalent. The German verb "werden" by itself means "to become (iĝi)," but as a helping verb builds the passive voice when used with a past participle (or the future tense when teamed with an infinitive, which seems irrelevant here). In German the question of by whom or what which lingers unanswered in the Esperanto would be answered by adding "von + person or thing."

"Vendiĝis / fermiĝis" leaves me aware of its state and does not make me wonder about how it came to be that way. That type of construction in German is through making the verb reflexive (Es verkaufte sich (---> It sold) / Die Tür schloss sich (--->The door closed). I can see it could easily be at least a ĝermanismo.

I wonder if other languages do the same?

Yes, other languages do the same. In Polish there are the same constructions.

sudanglo:A thread in the Esperanto Forums on iĝi plus participles prompts me to ask what difference you see between:

iĝis vendita and vendiĝis, or iĝis fermita and fermiĝis.

Not a lot, IMO. The course Pasporto al la tuta mondo, as I recall, teaches that a transitive verb can be made intransitive by using iĝ. Then again, the author, Paul Gubbins, is a scholar of German. OTOH, he is an Akademiano..

michaleo: Yes, other languages do the same. In Polish there are the same constructions.

Michaleo, does Polish also use a form of "to become" to form such expressions, including the passive voice?

The original discussion in the Esperanto thread was concerned with whether there is in Esperanto more than one auxiliary verb for forming the passive in Esperanto.

Whether igxi + participle is a passive seems to me to be fairly fruitless topic.

After all, you could argue that la butiko estas fermita isn't a passive, but just like la pordo estas rugxa. Sometimes participles are used just like adjectives.

To the extent that that is true, I suppose that there is nothing to prevent you combining igxi with a participle. Whether that can also produce a passive, I would happily leave to the linguists to decide. If esti + participle is not always a passive where does that leaves us?

jkph00:
"Iĝis vendita / fermita," etc., leaves me aware that the action is completed at whatever the time point is, but leaves me wondering by whom or what. The German "wurde verkauft / geschlossen" is probably the German equivalent. The German verb "werden" by itself means "to become (iĝi)," but as a helping verb builds the passive voice when used with a past participle (or the future tense when teamed with an infinitive, which seems irrelevant here). In German the question of by whom or what which lingers unanswered in the Esperanto would be answered by adding "von + person or thing."

"Vendiĝis / fermiĝis" leaves me aware of its state and does not make me wonder about how it came to be that way. That type of construction in German is through making the verb reflexive (Es verkaufte sich (---> It sold) / Die Tür schloss sich (--->The door closed). I can see it could easily be at least a ĝermanismo.

I wonder if other languages do the same?

Swedish has two ways of forming passiv, one with an auxiliary verb, "bli", with the meaning "to become", and another one formed with the ending "-s". The difference in meaning is subtle.

Using the auxiliary verb plus another verb, perhaps makes us feel that there are two stages: a transition and a resulting state, while with one single verb those two merge together.

I suppose that there are two issues here.

1. Is igxi + participo a 'ne-imitinda' calque from some national languages.

2. Is igxi an auxiliary verb that can also be used to form a passive in Esperanto - which is a question about the meaning of auxiliary verb and passive.

I was thinking about English:

It's got stuck half way down again. With a name like that he is going to get bullied at school.

Is 'get' therefore an auxiliary verb? Are these passives?

sudanglo:Is igxi an auxiliary verb that can also be used to form a passive in Esperanto

In my view no, iĝi X-ita is not the passive voice. A passive requires a subject to have some action performed upon them, and nothing of that sort is going on in a phrase like "iĝis fermita", where the passive participle is just showing a state.

And anyway, use of any auxiliary verb other than "esti" would be kontraŭfundamenta:

Fundamento:"All forms of the passive are rendered by the respective forms of the verb est (to be) and the participle passive of the required verb"

sudanglo:Is 'get' therefore an auxiliary verb? Are these passives?

From the Wikipedia article on the passive voice:

Wikipedia:English uses the past participle form of the verb plus an auxiliary verb, either be or get, to indicate passive voice.