Mesaĝoj: 25
Lingvo: English
bartlett22183 (Montri la profilon) 2014-februaro-10 19:43:44
My knowledge of Esperanto is entirely self-taught from books and other sources. I have never had any courses. (Perhaps I should go through one or more here at lernu!, which I never have.) Last evening I was reading an article in E-o from a back issue of a periodical. (The article and periodical themselves are not important. It might have been most any extended text.)
The style of language and vocabulary on the surface came across as quite straightforward, nothing convoluted. I did not have a dictionary ready to hand, but I seemed to understand most of the words. However, when I finished the article, I realized that I had not understood it well, despite seeming to know the words. I have had this experience before.
I admit that I am a sort of eterna komencanto, having had relatively little opportunity actually to engage the language in a two-way manner. But I presume that I am not the only person to "read but not understand." Any suggestions from the experienced? Thanks.
The style of language and vocabulary on the surface came across as quite straightforward, nothing convoluted. I did not have a dictionary ready to hand, but I seemed to understand most of the words. However, when I finished the article, I realized that I had not understood it well, despite seeming to know the words. I have had this experience before.
I admit that I am a sort of eterna komencanto, having had relatively little opportunity actually to engage the language in a two-way manner. But I presume that I am not the only person to "read but not understand." Any suggestions from the experienced? Thanks.
erinja (Montri la profilon) 2014-februaro-10 19:56:02
This happens to me in English when I read without paying attention. I read, I understand the words, and I reach the end of the page having no idea what I just read.
I was working on an Assimil course recently. I read a series of example sentences in the target language, and I understood the meaning of each one. The sentences had no obvious link between them, they seemed to me to be simple examples of the grammar and vocabulary I'd been learning in the last few lessons. It seemed strange to me that the last "sentence" was "love, Mom and Dad". Then I read the explanatory text, which partially took the form of a translation, and realized that the sentences were not meant to be disjointed, though I read them that way - The exercise took the form of a mother and father writing a letter to their child! I was so focused on the trees that I failed to notice the forest, and reading it a second time, the sentences no longer seemed disjointed, I could see how it flowed as a letter.
For you, I suspect it was similar. You were focused on individual words and phrases but it sounds like you read individual words and phrases straight through to the end, managing to miss the overarching theme of the article. Perhaps you should pick up the same article again, and after each paragraph, rather than continuing, stop. Think about what you read. Try to summarize it in English, mentally, before continuing -- and if you can't summarize it, read it again, looking not only at the words, but at the connections and flow of the sentences, to really understand what you read. Then don't continue to the next paragraph until you understand the previous one. That may help. Sounds like all you need is to be a bit more mindful about your reading.
I was working on an Assimil course recently. I read a series of example sentences in the target language, and I understood the meaning of each one. The sentences had no obvious link between them, they seemed to me to be simple examples of the grammar and vocabulary I'd been learning in the last few lessons. It seemed strange to me that the last "sentence" was "love, Mom and Dad". Then I read the explanatory text, which partially took the form of a translation, and realized that the sentences were not meant to be disjointed, though I read them that way - The exercise took the form of a mother and father writing a letter to their child! I was so focused on the trees that I failed to notice the forest, and reading it a second time, the sentences no longer seemed disjointed, I could see how it flowed as a letter.
For you, I suspect it was similar. You were focused on individual words and phrases but it sounds like you read individual words and phrases straight through to the end, managing to miss the overarching theme of the article. Perhaps you should pick up the same article again, and after each paragraph, rather than continuing, stop. Think about what you read. Try to summarize it in English, mentally, before continuing -- and if you can't summarize it, read it again, looking not only at the words, but at the connections and flow of the sentences, to really understand what you read. Then don't continue to the next paragraph until you understand the previous one. That may help. Sounds like all you need is to be a bit more mindful about your reading.
RiotNrrd (Montri la profilon) 2014-februaro-11 02:25:58
That used to happen to me quite frequently in the early days, although as time went on it happened less and less. Still happens on occasion, though.
When it happens, when I do not know what it is that I just read in Esperanto, I translate it directly into English before moving on and, once I DO understand it, try to figure out (briefly) why I didn't understand it in Esperanto. I do not allow non-understood sentences to get past me. If I have to read a sentence five times and dig out a dictionary to make sense of it, that's what I'll do.
It pays off. It's annoying at first, but, like I said, as you practice, you'll have to do it less and less.
When it happens, when I do not know what it is that I just read in Esperanto, I translate it directly into English before moving on and, once I DO understand it, try to figure out (briefly) why I didn't understand it in Esperanto. I do not allow non-understood sentences to get past me. If I have to read a sentence five times and dig out a dictionary to make sense of it, that's what I'll do.
It pays off. It's annoying at first, but, like I said, as you practice, you'll have to do it less and less.
sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2014-februaro-11 12:46:00
My knowledge of Esperanto is entirely self-taught from books and other sources. I have never had any coursesI would say that in the history of Esperanto that has been the norm. And some of the best Esperantists I have met have done just that.
The phenomenon of organizing conferences devoted to courses, seems to me to be a relatively recent, and (in my personal opinion) a rather peculiar phenomenon, which has grown up alongside an increasing tendency to view Esperanto as though it were like any other 'natural' language - which, of course, it isn't.
In the early days, Esperanto was considered so easy that it was thought that you could send a letter in Esperanto to a non-Esperantist, along with a ŝlosilo in the mother tongue of the letter recipient, and the recipient would be able to decode the letter.
The ŝlosilo was a small booklet may be about 3 x 4 inches, with a list of roots and their translations and a sketch of the grammar. They were produced in umpteen different languages. I used to have a few, but don't know where they are now.
I think it is a moot point, whether one learns more by attending one of these course-conferences, as opposed to just going to a normal Esperanto conference and just getting stuck in with trying to keep your end up in grown-up conversation with spertuloj.
bartlett22183 (Montri la profilon) 2014-februaro-11 21:41:05
RiotNrrd:That used to happen to me quite frequently in the early days, although as time went on it happened less and less. Still happens on occasion, though.Years ago (I don't remember when, but it could have been forty years ago), I read a book by a language professor in which he said that he had learned various languages and wanted to learn another over a summer. His recommendation was that one take a serious book in the target language and make sure that one understand everything in the first twenty pages. Thereafter it should only be needful to look up a few vocabulary items here and there. Serious advice, I would say, although in this day and age that advice can present practical issues.
When it happens, when I do not know what it is that I just read in Esperanto, I translate it directly into English before moving on and, once I DO understand it, try to figure out (briefly) why I didn't understand it in Esperanto. I do not allow non-understood sentences to get past me. If I have to read a sentence five times and dig out a dictionary to make sense of it, that's what I'll do.
It pays off. It's annoying at first, but, like I said, as you practice, you'll have to do it less and less.
I would say that my (personal) grasp of Esperanto grammar is fairly good. It comes down to a matter of understanding / recalling vocabulary and putting it all together.
erinja (Montri la profilon) 2014-februaro-11 23:35:18
I've heard of that method of learning before. Seems difficult to me but I guess if you speak a lot of languages already it makes more sense. In school I had a friend whose father was accomplished at learning languages and he said that all he needed was a dictionary and a serious book to learn. I've also heard of sitting with someone who speaks the language, and a text in the target language, and working with that person to translate and understand the text word for word, as a method of learning. Of course it is also labor-intensive on the part of the 'teacher'.
sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2014-februaro-12 10:43:27
It's an obvious point, but perhaps worth commenting on, that it was a necessary characteristic of Esperanto that it could be seen to be acquirable by the auxtodidakta route.
If the language had had to wait for the training of teachers, and the production of learning materials, such as are abundant in the world of EFL (English as a foreign language), then the language could hardly have got off the ground.
And its spread today, is still aided today by the fact that it is practicable for students to teach themselves.
I look at the current development of exams and qualifications in Esperanto and renkontigxoj devoted to just learning the language, the whole business of the pseudo professionalization of the teaching of Esperanto, and the linguists engagement in 'scientific' studies of Esperanto and scratch my head in wonder.
What happened to Esperanto being easy for adults to learn?
If the language had had to wait for the training of teachers, and the production of learning materials, such as are abundant in the world of EFL (English as a foreign language), then the language could hardly have got off the ground.
And its spread today, is still aided today by the fact that it is practicable for students to teach themselves.
I look at the current development of exams and qualifications in Esperanto and renkontigxoj devoted to just learning the language, the whole business of the pseudo professionalization of the teaching of Esperanto, and the linguists engagement in 'scientific' studies of Esperanto and scratch my head in wonder.
What happened to Esperanto being easy for adults to learn?
kaŝperanto (Montri la profilon) 2014-februaro-12 15:43:24
sudanglo:It's an obvious point, but perhaps worth commenting on, that it was a necessary characteristic of Esperanto that it could be seen to be acquirable by the auxtodidakta route.I myself have learned mostly by reading introductory material from early 20th century texts, but I can appreciate the demand for easier to follow more interactive learning tools.
If the language had had to wait for the training of teachers, and the production of learning materials, such as are abundant in the world of EFL (English as a foreign language), then the language could hardly have got off the ground.
And its spread today, is still aided today by the fact that it is practicable for students to teach themselves.
I look at the current development of exams and qualifications in Esperanto and renkontigxoj devoted to just learning the language, the whole business of the pseudo professionalization of the teaching of Esperanto, and the linguists engagement in 'scientific' studies of Esperanto and scratch my head in wonder.
What happened to Esperanto being easy for adults to learn?
I also find the studies that prove Esperanto is beneficial to learn as a first foreign language to be very valuable to the cause.
I would say that culture and lifestyle changes since Esperanto's inception are to blame for Esperanto becoming "less easy" to learn. We all have more to do and less time to do it in, and that doesn't even mention the immense number of distractions/entertainment that we have today that weren't even imaginable back then. Back in the day Esperanto was probably "cool", but these days not so much.
sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2014-februaro-12 17:01:47
You are certainly right about the distractions in the modern world and their effect on the free time available.
On the other hand the Internet has made Esperanto very accessible, as has the cheapness of flights, and that most people have a car, made conferencing not just for the well off.
My guess would be that the net effect of the modern world is favourable to Esperanto. But I could be wrong.
On the other hand the Internet has made Esperanto very accessible, as has the cheapness of flights, and that most people have a car, made conferencing not just for the well off.
My guess would be that the net effect of the modern world is favourable to Esperanto. But I could be wrong.
kaŝperanto (Montri la profilon) 2014-februaro-12 18:36:38
Just noticed I forgot to include my answer to the OP:
I have definitely re-read over something and noticed that my interpretation was totally incorrect, but this is not entirely related to Esperanto. Sometimes your mind just wanders or loses focus and you end up "reading" the words with little to no comprehension of them. It also happens in songs where I thought I heard one word but in fact it was another (that's in any language for me, though).
I also sometimes have difficulty reading what others have written when they use very nationalistic style in their language. For example, directly translating common idiomatic expressions, using incorrect prepositions, etc. But if you are reading literary works I doubt there are many of these.
As I mentioned before, I learned most of what I know from older books, and I don't think it is as much a hindrance as it could be for a national language (as long as you put the effort into them). But learning styles are always different, so perhaps another style of course would help you better.
I have definitely re-read over something and noticed that my interpretation was totally incorrect, but this is not entirely related to Esperanto. Sometimes your mind just wanders or loses focus and you end up "reading" the words with little to no comprehension of them. It also happens in songs where I thought I heard one word but in fact it was another (that's in any language for me, though).
I also sometimes have difficulty reading what others have written when they use very nationalistic style in their language. For example, directly translating common idiomatic expressions, using incorrect prepositions, etc. But if you are reading literary works I doubt there are many of these.
As I mentioned before, I learned most of what I know from older books, and I don't think it is as much a hindrance as it could be for a national language (as long as you put the effort into them). But learning styles are always different, so perhaps another style of course would help you better.