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Getting the hang of -n

ya Hesiod, 25 Februari 2014

Ujumbe: 10

Lugha: English

Hesiod (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 25 Februari 2014 7:17:21 asubuhi

I was wondering if this sentence is grammatically correct. If it is, then I think I understand the -n. It's the simplest concept, I know, but I think a few bad anki cards have reinforced some bad habits. Never mind the validity of the statement itself. :]

"Estas malfacila trovi literaturon en esperanton."

Edit: I'm not so sure about the word order. Also, I think I may have posted this in the wrong spot.

johmue (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 25 Februari 2014 8:14:33 asubuhi

Hesiod:I was wondering if this sentence is grammatically correct. If it is, then I think I understand the -n. It's the simplest concept, I know, but I think a few bad anki cards have reinforced some bad habits. Never mind the validity of the statement itself. :]

"Estas malfacila trovi literaturon en esperanton."
Corrected: "Estas malfacile trovi literaturon en Esperanto"

Read on -n after "en" here: http://bertilow.com/pmeg/gramatiko/rolmontriloj/n/...

The usage "Estas malfacila trovi ..." can also be considered grammatically correct, however according to my personal experience, the e-form is more common.

http://bertilow.com/pmeg/gramatiko/i-verboj/subjek...

Hesiod (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 25 Februari 2014 9:14:42 asubuhi

Thanks for the links and the quick reply! I really appreciate it.

yugary (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 26 Februari 2014 6:43:46 asubuhi

johmue:
Hesiod:I was wondering if this sentence is grammatically correct. If it is, then I think I understand the -n. It's the simplest concept, I know, but I think a few bad anki cards have reinforced some bad habits. Never mind the validity of the statement itself. :]

"Estas malfacila trovi literaturon en esperanton."
Corrected: "Estas malfacile trovi literaturon en Esperanto"

Read on -n after "en" here: http://bertilow.com/pmeg/gramatiko/rolmontriloj/n/...

The usage "Estas malfacila trovi ..." can also be considered grammatically correct, however according to my personal experience, the e-form is more common.

http://bertilow.com/pmeg/gramatiko/i-verboj/subjek...
Actually, only "malfacile" is right in this case. Verbs are always modified by adverbs in Esperanto, even when the infinitive functions as a substantive.

kaŝperanto (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 27 Februari 2014 4:01:48 alasiri

The accusative is definitely more tricky than everyone lets on. The accusative showing movement doesn't really follow from the idea that it is linked to the object of the sentence. It can also be used to show measurements. The required materials for the Exams on Lernu have good explanations of this if you have trouble reading the PMEG site.

Another interesting use that tripped me up on the exams is the use of accusative after "kiel", as in:

"Mi elektis lin kiel prezidanton" ~= "I elected him as president" (as in he is now the president, and I elected him to be president).
vs.
"Mi elektis lin keil prezidanto" ~= "I elected him as president" (as in I was the president and I elected him).

This usage actually perfectly jives with the "accusative is object" idea, since "kandidaton" links it to the object "vin" while "kandidato" links it to the subject "mi", but for some reason this tripped me up. I'm not sure if the Lernu exam materials list this, but PMEG has an entry about it (not under the accusative directory, though). I stole my example from there.
PMEG

The accusative is very powerful, it just takes time to learn (and more so to recognize) its peculiarities.

yugary:
Actually, only "malfacile" is right in this case. Verbs are always modified by adverbs in Esperanto, even when the infinitive functions as a substantive.
That is my understanding as well. You need a noun to have an adjective. You can have "Ĝi estas varma", but if you drop the subject from the sentence you must use "Estas varme".

robbkvasnak (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 27 Februari 2014 9:05:32 alasiri

As yes, the yarns of grammar. Malfacilas trovi literaturon en Esperanto - La trovo de literaturo en Esperanto estas malfacila - should I knit some more?

eshapard (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 11 Juni 2015 10:45:17 alasiri

yugary:
Hesiod:
"Estas malfacila trovi literaturon en esperanto."
Actually, only "malfacile" is right in this case. Verbs are always modified by adverbs in Esperanto, even when the infinitive functions as a substantive.
If you say "erari estas home (to err is human)", then I think you are modifying the infinitive erari.

In "Trovi literaturon en esperanto estas malficila", is malficila modifying the infinitive trovi, or are you modifying the phrase 'trovi lituraturon en esperanto'?

erinja (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 11 Juni 2015 10:49:35 alasiri

eshapard:In "Trovi literaturon en esperanto estas malficila", is malficila modifying the infinitive trovi, or are you modifying the phrase 'trovi lituraturon en esperanto'?
This would need to be "...estas malfacile"

You're still modifying "trovi" regardless of how you want to parse it. If you wanted to use the a-form, it would have to be "Trovado de literaturo en Esperanto estas malfacila"

eshapard (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 11 Juni 2015 11:00:57 alasiri

erinja:
eshapard:In "Trovi literaturon en esperanto estas malficila", is malficila modifying the infinitive trovi, or are you modifying the phrase 'trovi lituraturon en esperanto'?
This would need to be "...estas malfacile"

You're still modifying "trovi" regardless of how you want to parse it. If you wanted to use the a-form, it would have to be "Trovado de literaturo en Esperanto estas malfacila"
So would you say that you use the adverb form to modify both the infinitive and infinitive phrases?

robbkvasnak (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 12 Juni 2015 1:31:44 asubuhi

Yeaaaah!, net-surfer dudes, let's hang an -n!
So, just think of "you like ME" and not "you like I" to start with. This explains how even English has retained the objective form in some cases, even though the word order would suffice.
I bet that in an Esperanto-speaking world things would get more or less complicated but you can really always find a form like "malfacilas trovi..." and "bluas la ĉielo" - I think we often try to hold on to our Indo-European habits when we could just let go with the flow. Dang, back then they would have said "Esperanto is so grovy" but that sort of left town with the peace movement... malgajo.gif

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