The one example that I see is that most people here who use Esperanto don't use compound verbs (where esti is an auxiliary verb, e.g. mi estis irinta [I had been] vs. simply mi iris [I went]). The avoidance of such verb forms would be a good example of demotic/popular Esperanto to me. I could imagine someone code-switching there, using simple verb tenses to make themselves more easily understood or using compound tenses to sound more educated and knowledgeable.

I don't think you can stop this kind of sociolinguistic variation occurring in any living language. As orthohawk says, Vulgar Latin gave birth to French, Spanish, Italian, Romanian etc., whereas the literary Latin of Cicero died out pretty rapidly, so just because a form of language is demotic doesn't mean that it isn't of value and can't be influential. It simply means that you live in an unequal society (as we all do) and that those inequalities are reflected in language; one form isn't necessarily better than another, so long as they both express information well.

Getting away from European languages, I suppose you could see the simplification of Chinese characters that took place in the '50s as an example of a similar thing in written language (although that was imposed from above rather than a natural evolution). Or how the use of kana syllabaries over kanji characters increased in the history of written Japanese (which was a bit more of a natural evolution, as they were first adopted by relatively low-status people like women in the feudal court, whereas the educated elites preferred to continue using only kanji).

One person's demotic is another person's quaint foreign slang. Sudanglo uses, for example, the expression "mate". We here would only use "mate" in addressing a sailor on a ship, not just anyone we know. We might use "bud" or "dude" and in gay lingo we use "stud" for other guys. I guess that these terms are sort of demotic - but how about "ulo" in Esperanto as in: "'skultu, ulo, ankaŭ mi volas diri ion"?

jismith1989:The one example that I see is that most people here who use Esperanto don't use compound verbs (where esti is an auxiliary verb, e.g. mi estis irinta [I had been] vs. simply mi iris [I went]). The avoidance of such verb forms would be a good example of demotic/popular Esperanto to me. I could imagine someone code-switching there, using simple verb tenses to make themselves more easily understood or using compound tenses to sound more educated and knowledgeable.

I would tell you the opposite, in fact. Avoiding compound verbs is an example of good Esperanto style, widely practiced by fluent ("elite"?) Esperanto speakers. Extensive use of compound verbs is usually a sign of someone who doesn't speak the language very well; it often means that the person is translating too literally from their native language, which may use a lot of compound verbs. Beginners who are speakers of most European languages tend to overuse and misuse compound verbs.

I really think a more fitting categorization for Esperanto in particular would be something like "Grammar Book Esperanto" and "Living Esperanto".

Grammar Book Esperanto is the one that we all understand. This is Zamenhofian Esperanto, where everyone but denaskuloj and people who learn exclusively by ear, begin learning. I would say that this one is the "language of the people" despite the fact that is generally the more grammatically correct. I would say that beginner Esperantists are attempting first to speak this proper version of the language.

Living Esperanto is what I would describe as the "elite language". It is not, however, the language of literature. Rather, this version of the language can only be learned by ear and through frequent casual conversation with other people with an advanced level of Esperanto. What makes it the "elite" version of the language is that it exists among advanced speakers and it is NOT taught in grammar books, because it includes a knowledge of (taboo) neologisms, and a knowledge of which phrases are the most widely used. Whether or not you agree with reform, if you are an advanced speaker, you will understand words like "mojosa" "trista" "mava" "ri" "-icx-" and "na". You will be familiar with common turns of phrase and the "correct" compound words to use for things, rather than coming up with your own new compound words--for example, saying "brakumo" for hug instead of "cxirkauxbrakigi" or "enbrakigi". Some words are just established as the "right" ones to use, but you only know this if they are old enough to be the standard in an old grammar book OR if you communicate with Esperantists frequently and participate in the living Esperanto community. There are also certain grammatical tendencies towards simplification, such as avoiding too many roots and turning affixes into roots, avoidance of too many compound verbs, etc.

When someone first arrives on the shores of Esperantujo, they speak to you in Grammar Book/Zamenhofian style, and you greet them in Grammar Book/Zamenhofian style. After they have been in Esperantoland for a while, they naturally begin to acquire the neologisms and the particular vocabulary words and grammar techniques that signify someone who speaks the language often and actively with others.

I'll be glad to discuss that topic in esperanto forum. But how to translate the word "demotic"? Is "popola" an exact synonym ?Or should I use popoleca aŭ popolaĉa?

One can always imagine a demotic Esperanto, just as the author of Klingon imagined a language for aliens, or Tolkien a language for elves (elvish). Or closer to home, a pra-Esperanto that might have been spoken in the Middle Ages

And this fine for literary purposes, as when translating, one may may need to render certain passages in a crime novel, or give a flavour of the speech of persons of a particular class.

But to have an actual demotic of Esperanto one would need a 'demos' to validate it.

And if the fina venko is difficult to imagine for some Esperantists, even more so is the emergence of a class of speakers of Esperanto who could give reality to something that might be accurately labelled as demotic Esperanto.

sudanglo really hits the nerve here. Indeed, we would first need a society in which Esperanto were used on a 24/7 basis for all needs - be they every so prosaic and mundane. We would need a physical space where Esperanto-speakers lived totally involved in their lives which would be carried out in Esperanto. We would need prostitutes, break-and-entry-theives, hedge fund managers, bank robbers, rapists, insurance salespeople, financial advisers, plain out-and-out sadists, and more. We'd need some hot porn (straight, gay, trans - maybe even some bestiality) and some populist sports fans, some nationalists, some liberals and conservatives, some drug users and alcoholics.

My better half often chides me about Esperanto culture at dinner time and says: Okay, make us an Esperantan meal! And, yes, sudanglo pravas ("is right", though "pravas" for me is more forceful) my E-cussing doesn't rile him at all. I guess it doesn't hit his demotic feelings of being cursed at vilely.

If only I could teach Esperanto to the apathetic people I have to deal with day-in day-out, people who don't read newspapers, books, or poems ... then maybe I would hear some demotic Esperanto.

At any rate, our local Spanglish is developping a demotic side very rapidly and may enter into the world of spoken languages one day through its demotic doorway.

robbkvasnak:sudanglo really hits the nerve here. Indeed, we would first need a society in which Esperanto were used on a 24/7 basis for all needs - be they every so prosaic and mundane.

There actually is a chance of a 24/7 speaking community arising, albeit scattered across the globe and communicating on the internet. Projects like retbabilejo.net hint at this possibility.

There aren't enough conservative prescriptivists on Earth to monitor all these emerging channels of communication and spank those who deviate from their rules. The immediate future could be very, very interesting.

Rikat:There actually is a chance of a 24/7 speaking community arising, albeit scattered across the globe and communicating on the internet. Projects like retbabilejo.net hint at this possibility.

I already took part at some Mumble voice conferences. I like it because it still gives you some kind of anonymity. Same like at some forum it will need some administration and moderation to keep trolls out. At some Mumble conference its difficult to ignore troll's voice trash. Some administration has to 'fix' that instantly. Sound quality depends on how users prepared their headsets. Mumbles has very low voice latency. Its really like worldwide real time conversation.

The point that I was trying to make is that the community would have to LIVE BY USING ESPERANTO as the MAIN LANGUAGE of communication for everyday things - not internet conversations - talking about really, really everyday things like between two people who don't use full sentences but understand each other perfectly (or almost) - like telling someone you're on the crapper and are constipated or making love (try that on the internet, even mumbling or garbling or whaddevr - arguing and bitching at home, taking out the garbage and stuff - not what we do on the net but what we talk about in daily life with those in our household (I won't necessarily say "loved ones" cause who knows how much love there is and how much boring used-to'ed-ness) - I mean like pushing someone's buttons, getting under their skin, smellng their snot - gritty four-letter life, no nambypamby nicy-ness, no friggin grammargrammar like in school or Mommy says you can't say that junk - that's what maybe some people have against Esperanto or BritCom or Bühnendeutsch - it's not the real dirt of life, it's too nice, too sweet, too polished and too trolled, cajoled an' mucked - too argued whether -aĵ- is only something concrete and -um- is too vague, cause real day-to-day life gives a shit about that stuff but that is what Esperantists care about - Chresthomatic questioning with lots of holds barred to be polite and pretty and pissy - not even all-time-internet can reduplicate that - sorry if the language is jarring or filthy but I don't know how to put it more frankly