Poruke: 12
Jezik: English
sudanglo (Prikaz profila) 11. ožujka 2014. 12:35:04
I helped her off with her raincoat. She smelled very nice. She had a pair of legs - so far as I could determine - that were not painful to look at. She wore night-sheer stockings. I stared at them rather intently, especially when she crossed her legs and held out a cigarette to be lighted.
'Christian Dior,' she said, reading my rather open mind. 'I never wear anything else. A light please.'
'You're wearing a lot more today,' I said snapping a lighter for her.
'I don't greatly care for passes this early in the morning.'
'What time would suit you, Miss Vermilyea?'
She smiled rather acidly, inventoried her handbag, and tossed me a manila envelope.
Chandler is a master of a laconic brittle style and witty dialogue. Can we capture this in Esperanto?
Hundies19 (Prikaz profila) 11. ožujka 2014. 18:50:58
Helpis demeti mi sxian pluvopalton. Flarigxis sxi bonege. Paron da Gamboj posedis sxi tiom bone kiom povis mi diveni ke nedolorigas tiuj por spektigxi. Surhavis sxi 'night-sheer' sxtrumpojn. Spektadis mi al ilin ja atente, aparte foje krucigis ilin sxi, kiam tempis lumigi cigareton.
O 'Christian Dior' diris sxi komprenante nekasxatan menson mian. Diris “Neniam surhavas mi ian ajn alian. Cetere, al mi fajrigon.'
'Surhavas vi hodiaux multan pli' Midiris. Sxaltante fajrigon al sxi.
'Nepreferas implikatojn mi tiom matenfrue' Dirias sxi.
'Kiam al vi taugus? O Frauxlino Vermilyea?'
Rimarkende acide diretis sxi, serxcis sian mansakon kaj jxetetis al mi koverton manilan.
The straightforward language of the original can be difficult. For example 'quite intently' should, in my opinion be 'ja atente', not 'tre atente' because the word 'quite' is meant to imply emphasis while also sounding innocuous. I translated 'rather' to rimarkende because 'rather' is supposed to be emphatic despite being literally innocuous. I'm not much of a writer myself so I will elaborate only on things that you may notice about my translation, if you should notice anything particularly useful in it.
morfran (Prikaz profila) 12. ožujka 2014. 10:07:44
sudanglo:Chandler is a master of a laconic brittle style and witty dialogue. Can we capture this in Esperanto?I make no claim to style, but here's a more or less word-for-word translation. (I took “night-sheer stockings” to mean sheer black stockings, and had to invent “manilpapera” for the once Manila-made hemp paper used for large envelopes, but otherwise it’s literal.)
Mi helpis ŝin demeti sian pluvmantelon. Ŝi odoris tre agrable. Ŝi havis paron da gamboj — kiom mi povis determini — kiuj ne estis doloraj rigardi. Ŝi surhavis diafane nigrajn ŝtrumpojn. Mi fiksrigardis ilijn iom firmatente, precipe kiam ŝi krucis la gambojn kaj etendis cigaredon por ekbruligo.
“Christian Dior,” ŝi diris, legante mian tre apertan menson. “Mi neniam surhavas alion ajn. Flamon, bonvole.”
“Vi surhavas multe pli hodiaŭ,” mi diris klakigante flamigilon por ŝi.
“Ne multe plaĉas al mi provoj amindumi tiel frue matene.”
“Kioman horon konvenus al vi, fraŭlino Vermilyea?”
Ŝi ridetis iom acide, inventaris sian retikulon, kaj ĵetis al mi manilpaperan koverton.
sudanglo (Prikaz profila) 12. ožujka 2014. 11:32:32
Inventarii for to inventory, not inventari. Retikulo - good choice, better here than mansak(et)o, I think.
I have a problem with amindumi which always seems to me quaintly Victorian and does not have the direct quality of make a pass. But I haven't got an alternative suggestion for the moment.
Instead of doloraj rigardi I would have said doloraj por rigardi, or perhaps dolorigaj por rigardi. Compare nenion por manĝi - nothing to eat.
Diafanajn nigrajn rather than diafane nigrajn.
ilijn, I presume is just a mis-tajpo.
I would normally think of a lighter as a fajrilo and the request for a light as fajron mi petas. I think that is how it is said in a number of European languages. But I quite like the crispness of flamon, bonvole.
morfran (Prikaz profila) 12. ožujka 2014. 18:14:30
Something else to consider: English rather is often translated by iom, but rather means “to a certain or significant extent”, while iom means “to an indefinite but usually small degree”, which is fine if one’s using rather to mean somewhat, but in the passage here the sense seems closer to very. Esperanto already has iomete for “indefinite but very small degree”; perhaps iomege, while not PIV, would better render rather here.
morfran (Prikaz profila) 12. ožujka 2014. 19:39:25
sudanglo:I have a problem with amindumi which always seems to me quaintly Victorian and does not have the direct quality of make a pass.Agreed. Perhaps amorindumi might be more to the point here. Again, not PIV, but probably decipherable to anyone who knows what amindumi means.
sudanglo (Prikaz profila) 13. ožujka 2014. 13:18:39
Whilst iom and iomete are very common in Esperanto, iomege is barely used, seems jocular, and would jar because of its unusualness. We have tre and multe for that meaning.
Amindumi is recorded in the English dictionaries as woo and court which definitely isn't make a pass and NPIV gives the definition as peni placxi (pro seksaj celoj).
Provoj amindumi isn't bad, but I'm tempted to look for alternatives. It seems to me that Esperanto needs an equivalent of French 'draguer'.
The secretary is objecting to Marlowe's leery comment - that he is trying to come on to her. There is something of a sugesto or propono in what Marlowe says.
Mi ne aprecas flirtaĵojn (koketaĵojn, fi-proponojn, fi-sugestojn). Anybody got a good idea?
robbkvasnak (Prikaz profila) 13. ožujka 2014. 16:22:54
morfran (Prikaz profila) 14. ožujka 2014. 05:05:01
sudanglo:Mi ne aprecas flirtaĵojn (koketaĵojn, fi-proponojn, fi-sugestojn). Anybody got a good idea?French and Italian say “advances” like we do in English. Esperanto’s avanco doesn’t seem to carry that connotation, but could easily be made to do so — you could say something like Mi ne ŝatas tiajn avancojn.
(btw, you probably want ŝati, not apreci, which means “appreciate” in the sense of “appraise”. Or thus spake the PIV.
) sudanglo (Prikaz profila) 14. ožujka 2014. 10:04:05
(btw, you probably want ŝati, not apreci, which means “appreciate” in the sense of “appraise”. Or thus spake the PIVFrom Lingvistikaj Aspektoj de Esperanto:
En la posta evoluo, la riĉiĝo de la leksika stoko okazis pro tio, ke parolantoj de la lingvo, kaj/aŭ la leksikografoj kiuj servis ilin, volis ŝtopi perceptatan truon en la radikaro. Ofte tio estis por doni la eblecon eviti longajn aŭ pezajn kunmetaĵojn (subjektivaj konsideroj!), tiel ke metal/faden/o cedis al drat/o, kresk/aĵ/o al plant/o, mal/san/ul/ej/o al hospital/o ktp (kaj ofte la kunmetita formo konservis sian viglecon en la lingvo).
Aŭ tio okazis ĉar oni volis, konscie aŭ ne, starigi semantikan izomorfecon kun la nacia lingvo. Tiel, ekzemple, oni emis uzi ŝati en senco kovrata, en la klasika lingvo, de ami (mi ŝatas ĉokoladon); poste necesis alpreni la novan aprezi (aŭ apreci) por kovri la klasikan sencon de ŝati (mi aprezas vian kontribuon al la debato). Ĉiam forta estis la premo, akcepti ‘internaciajn’ vortojn, allaseblajn laŭ la 15-a Regulo de la Fundamenta Gramatiko.
Further examples from the Tekstaro:
La publiko tre aprecis la spritan prezentadon
Ŝi aparte aprezis la esperantigon de Unesko-eldonaĵoj
la difino en PIV estas iom miskonduka.
In French apprécier seems to cover both appreciate and appraise. I have not come across usage of apreci in Esperanto for to appraise (to estimate the value of an object). It is always possible to use taksi for appraisal meanings.
Perhaps it could be useful to distinguish in Esperanto aprezi for appraise and apreci for appreciate rather than having a word with alternative spellings (and possibly double meaning)