A question about participles
ca, kivuye
Ubutumwa 17
ururimi: English
richardhall (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 13 Ntwarante 2014 14:55:16
I might begin to think that I really do deserve to be the eterna komencanto, had I not got 46/50. Of course I got 2 of the participle questions wrong, so that's that.
I don't understand why one of them is wrong, though.
The sentence is: Dum la ven____ jaro mi havos multe da laboro. I made that venanta, the required answer is venonta. But why? If by "In the coming year" I mean 2015, I can see why -onta is the correct choice. But I took it to mean "During the year following from now, the next 12 months" and that starts immediately. Doesn't that make the present participle the correct choice?
Presumably I'm missing something obvious and I'm about to feel like an idiot but I'd be grateful if someone could explain in words of one syllable!
kaŝperanto (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 13 Ntwarante 2014 17:06:48
I believe I also missed that particular question, and I attribute it to which answer is "more correct". The year will be coming seems more literally true than the year is already coming. I think there are a few other questions where it seems that anta/ata or inta/ita could both be used, but the more specific one was the only right answer. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable than I can provide a more satisfactory answer.
I was tripped up the most at first by accusative for length and measurement, and then by the accusative used with "rolmontriloj" ("Mi elektis lin kiel prezidanton" vs. "Mi elektis lin kiel prezidanto" ).
The exams are very helpful to find areas you are weak in but don't know you are. I always failed in the fill-in-the-blank exercises due to being in too much of a hurry or not fully knowing some aspect of grammar.
tommjames (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 13 Ntwarante 2014 17:12:44
richardhall:"During the year following from now, the next 12 months"The key part here is "from now". By definition if something is from now then it's in the future, hence the future participle.
I suppose that logically both venanta and venonta should be possible, since the rest of this year is both "to come" and "coming" in some sense. But in my experience Esperanto overwhelmingly uses the future participle for this sort of phrase.
A potential source of confusion may be the fact that in English we use progressive participles to indicate things in the future. "When are you coming?" for example. In Esperanto that would normally be "Kiam vi venos?" but if you wanted to use the participle it would be "Kiam vi estas venonta?", certainly not "Kiam vi estas venanta?"
richardhall (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 13 Ntwarante 2014 22:54:21
tommjames:A potential source of confusion may be the fact that in English we use progressive participles to indicate things in the future. "When are you coming?" for example. In Esperanto that would normally be "Kiam vi venos?" but if you wanted to use the participle it would be "Kiam vi estas venonta?", certainly not "Kiam vi estas venanta?"That makes sense. If I'd thought about how I'd use the simple verb form first, I probably would have gone with -onta.
kaŝperanto:I wouldn't feel too bad about failing the B exam (I did so three times), and only passed it about a month ago. The first time through I was like "this is easy", and I got like a 42/50.I don't feel bad at all. Slightly irritated with myself,but nothing stronger than that.
Thanks both for your helpful and encouraging replies.
robbkvasnak (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 13 Ntwarante 2014 23:32:03
sudanglo (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 14 Ntwarante 2014 10:49:30
If I'd thought about how I'd use the simple verb form first, I probably would have gone with -onta.That's probably quite a good guide.
Dum la jaro kiu venas
Dum la jaro kiu venos
There's obviously a difference between mi prenos la venantan buson (tiun, kiu venas) and mi prenos la venontan buson (tiun, kiu poste venos). I'll take this bus or the next one.
Of course all the years (or buses) in the future are technically venontaj, but -onta is often used for near future.
The current year is partly jam (al)veninta, so I think I would normally see the venonta jaro as one that is yet to come, hasn't yet started, the next one.
Would I say en la venantaj 12 monatoj (coming 365 days as opposed to calendar year) or en la venontaj 12 monatoj? Probably still venontaj. But perhaps a case could be made for venantaj.
tommjames (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 14 Ntwarante 2014 11:27:20
sudanglo:There's obviously a difference between mi prenos la venantan buson (tiun, kiu venas) and mi prenos la venontan buson (tiun, kiu poste venos)I'm not so sure that "la venonta buso" would necessarily be taken to mean the bus that will come after the one on it's way. To my ears at least, "la venonta buso" is the one on its way (i.e. the one that will come), despite the fact -anta could also be used.
For "the rest of the year" I think I would probably say something like "cetero de la jaro", rather than press the ambiguous "venonta" into use.
For the bus that will come after the one on its way, I think I'd say "la buso post la venonta".
kaŝperanto (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 14 Ntwarante 2014 15:54:32
robbkvasnak:"venonta" in this meaning is a question of usage - logically speaking both should be correct. Here is an example of Esperanto becoming an idiomatic language, just what most of us want to avoid but - I fear - is not the way the human brain works with language.I'd say that they should both be correct in the sense that a year is an abstract entity and it is impossible to reason as to which one is correct. A bus, on the other hand, can easily be venonta if it is currently sitting in a parking lot, but it is certainly not venanta at that time. If the bus is on its way, it is certainly venanta, and will likely be venonta too unless the driver drives off a bridge on the way to pick you up. The future is always coming now as well as about to come, so we certainly should be able to use both words.
sudanglo (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 15 Ntwarante 2014 09:52:43
The forms used depend on whether it is next in the past or next in the future.
So the next day we went to Paris becomes la sekvan (or sekvantan) tagon ni iris al Parizo, and next year the congress will be in Paris becomes la venontjara kongreso okazos en Parizo.
The convention is amply illustrated in the Tekstaro, and because in Esperanto the idea of next is time-loaded, it is not surprising that venonta is used for next year. And that isn't too illogical, though harsplitemuloj can argue that the a venonta io may be also venanta.
Waiting at a bus stop it is unlikely that one would actually use a participle to refer to the bus that is approaching (venanta buso). But my point was about using a rejigging in simple verb forms to illuminate the choice of participle form when a participle form is appropriate.
Timtim (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 18 Ntwarante 2014 20:33:58
tommjames:I'm not so sure that "la venonta buso" would necessarily be taken to mean the bus that will come after the one on it's way. To my ears at least, "la venonta buso" is the one on its way (i.e. the one that will come), despite the fact -anta could also be used.Agreed. I *might* say "venanta" to make mention of one that's currently in transit and which I can visualise (I might be able to picture its route, where it is on it and when it will arrive = la buso kiu nun venas) but quite naturally I'd settle for "venonta", with no particular bus in mind and referring to some bus which iam venos al la haltejo.