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So confused.

ya Aaron94, 20 Machi 2014

Ujumbe: 14

Lugha: English

Aaron94 (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 20 Machi 2014 12:54:21 asubuhi

Possible spoiler about Neĝulino!!!!

I was reading Neĝulino and about halfway through I was really confused by this sentence because I don't think it says what I think it says.

Context is that the queen is trying to kill the princess because she's prettier. (Crazy girl probs)

Ĝi=poisoned comb she's trying to give her

Ĝi tiel plaĉis al la knabino, ke ŝi lasis sin trompi kaj malfermis la pordon.

Trompi is confusing me here. I thought it said she allowed herself to be deceived (by the queen) and opened the door but it sounds more like she allowed herself to deceive herself rather than the queen deceiving her. I guess it doesn't make a difference in the end, but I thought it would have said trompiĝi. Trompi is transitive so either the queen deceived her or she deceived herself right? The queen isn't mentioned in the sentence so I figured it was the princess. That's how I got to my conclusion, however wrong it could be.

Some knowledgable person tell me! I have hardest time with iĝi and igi.

michaleo (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 20 Machi 2014 1:56:14 asubuhi

Deceive is also transitive. Ĝi tiel plaĉis al la knabino, ke ŝi lasis (al la reĝino) sin trompi kaj malfermis la pordon = She liked it so much that she allowed (the queen) to deceive her (the princess not the queen).
Ĝi tiel plaĉis al la knabino, ke ŝi lasis (al la reĝino) trompiĝi kaj malfermis la pordon could mean She liked it so much that she allowed (the queen) to deceive herself (the queen not the princess).

morfran (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 20 Machi 2014 4:35:50 asubuhi

Aaron94:Ĝi tiel plaĉis al la knabino, ke ŝi lasis sin trompi kaj malfermis la pordon.
Trompi isn’t the problem here, per se. It’s the construction lasi sin + transitive verb, which means “let oneself be -ed”. Counter-intuitive for English-speakers, God knows. Quoth the PIV regarding lasi:

Kiam la semantika subjekto de la inf. estas la sama, kiel tiu de lasi, la inf. akiras pasivan sencon, k la triapersona pron. iĝas refleksiva: mi lasis min kapti neatendite; li ne lasis sin konsoli; ŝi lasis sin trompi de li.

tommjames (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 20 Machi 2014 9:38:26 asubuhi

Yes I find that usage of "lasi" counter intuitive too. I notice Reta Vortaro marks it evitinda:

ReVo:Kvankam oni trovas iom ofte ĉe Z la verbon lasi uzata antaŭ infin. en senco de igi, tiu germanismo, kiu povas naski konfuzon, estas nepre evitinda: li lasis poluri sian kronon Z; vi lasis min voki Z (vi igis voki min).
There's also the Zamenhofian example of lasi sin peli de la ondoj Z, where "peli" means "esti pelita".

sudanglo (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 20 Machi 2014 11:13:38 asubuhi

Ne lasu vin trompi per la dolĉaj vortoj de vendistoj nek per la seduktaj sugestoj de TV-reklamoj.

Why is sedukti not in PIV, and seductive not in the Lernu dictionary?

tommjames (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 20 Machi 2014 4:06:00 alasiri

sudanglo:Why is sedukti not in PIV
Probably because we have delogi.

sudanglo (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 20 Machi 2014 5:55:40 alasiri

Seductive idea, seductive smile, seductive walk, seductive accent. Is deloga right for these? There may be no underlying intention to miskonduki or miskonduti. They simply cast a spell.

erinja (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 20 Machi 2014 6:06:44 alasiri

sudanglo:Ne lasu vin trompi per la dolĉaj vortoj de vendistoj nek per la seduktaj sugestoj de TV-reklamoj.

Why is sedukti not in PIV, and seductive not in the Lernu dictionary?
Dictionaries are made by people. People forget words, or simply don't have the time to include them all. I can't speak for PIV but if you are bothered by the absence of a particular word from the lernu dictionary, you can certainly add it (or request dictionary editing rights and then add it, if you don't yet have these rights).

tommjames (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 21 Machi 2014 9:38:34 asubuhi

We should bear in mind that whether or not 'sedukti' (or any other neologism) is useful in terms of whatever nuance it is thought to convey is a different matter to whether it should be included in the dictionary. IMO words should only make it into dictionaries if they are actually in use, and it isn't clear to me that 'sedukti' is in anywhere near wide enough use to warrant inclusion in PIV. There are no hits in Tekstaro and barely any in Google. I've never heard it used.

And no, I don't really see a problem with "deloga akĉento" or whatever. There's no need to take the meaning of "delogi" too literally when using it as an adjective. A "frapa argumento" does not actually hit anything, for example.

sudanglo (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 21 Machi 2014 11:15:47 asubuhi

Let me rephrase then, Tom. Why hasn't sedukti come into use. All the Romance languages have a word of similar form, English and Greek too,

Granted, Dutch, German, Swedish follow the model forloga.

I suppose one could use sirena - sirena rideto, voĉo, ideo - where the meaning is kvazaŭ deloga, or perhaps ensorĉa.

Erinja, is one allowed as a contributor to the Lernu vortaro to propose neologismoj to plug gaps, if they are flagged as such.

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