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Compound Words

od Gosudar, 6 kwietnia 2014

Wpisy: 10

Język: English

Gosudar (Pokaż profil) 6 kwietnia 2014, 20:25:31

The main reason that Esperanto is so very difficult to learn, the reason that there are so may eternaj komencantoj, the reason most people simply give up in frustration, is the impossibility of penetrating the mystery of compound words.

For example, what does "transdaŭri" mean in English?

lagtendisto (Pokaż profil) 6 kwietnia 2014, 20:48:25

Gosudar:For example, what does "transdaŭri" mean in English?
Maybe 'rainbowing'? okulumo.gif

morfran (Pokaż profil) 6 kwietnia 2014, 20:50:30

Gosudar:For example, what does "transdaŭri" mean in English?
I don’t recall ever seeing transdaŭri before, but there’s a trans-, post-, and super-vivi which mean “to survive” in the sense of “to live on after someone’s death” (he is survived by his wife and two children). Transdaŭri might be someone’s on-the-fly invention to describe the survival of something not really alive, as in R2-D2 transdaŭras sian farinton, Darth Vader, ĉe la fino de The Return of the Jedi.

There’s a site about Esperanto that compares the language to Lego; that Lego-ness, which is part of Esperanto’s appeal, I think, probably encourages people to get jiggier with the word-formation than beginners would like. okulumo.gif

sudanglo (Pokaż profil) 6 kwietnia 2014, 21:23:15

From a script of Polish Radio:

Dum la 2-a mondmilito Trzebiatów ne estis detruita, sed signife damaĝita. Transdaŭris do la mezepoka urboplano, historiaj konstruaĵoj kaj urba konstru­substanco.

Here the meaning seems to be to continue after the war.

Of the 21 hits I found with Kukolo, 7 originate from Polish Radio.

I don't know if transdaŭri is a calque from Polish, but anyway the meaning seems to be daŭri trans.

Here's a hit from wikipedia:

Orgenmuziko el la barokepoko estas ankoraŭ nuntempe fiksa ero de multaj orgenkoncertoj, kion kaŭzas, ke el tiu tempo, multaj fontoj, sed ankaŭ kelkaj orgenoj, transdaŭris ĝis hodiaŭ. (

The meaning is clearly survive, but it is more difficult to apply the analysis daŭri trans as it is not clear what the event is that is 'trans'ed.

The usage is clearer in the following:

En la postmilita tempo la turo estis kovrita per simpla betontegmento kaj tiel transdaŭris la jarojn de la GDR.
La arkivo transdaŭris la duan mondmiliton en sekura loko sen grandaj damaĝoj

morfran (Pokaż profil) 6 kwietnia 2014, 21:37:52

sudanglo:The meaning is clearly survive, but it is more difficult to apply the analysis daŭri trans as it is not clear what the event is that is 'trans'ed.
Nice finds. I think the object of trans here is the general extinction of organs, a handful of which is apparently being preserved for the odd baroque music fest.

Gosudar (Pokaż profil) 7 kwietnia 2014, 02:09:58

I will, no doubt, be asking further questions on this thread about mystifying compound words. I would like to take this opportunity to issue a general dankegon to everyone who has, or will, post responses. But I want, in particular, to thank sudanglo for looking into the present question so extensively and being so very helpful.

sudanglo (Pokaż profil) 7 kwietnia 2014, 10:37:40

Happy to help Gosudar, but I do not like the word transdaŭri for to survive. Prezerviĝi or konserviĝi might be better for the survival of the mediaeval structures.

Transdaŭri might be OK for exceed a time limit. Possibly transdaŭro could be used for the transit time of one heavenly body transiting another.

Also it seems absurd that in order to translate 'the specimens survived the journey' you should have to know whether the specimens were alive or not (eg fragile rocks or plants).

A case could be made for a new word 'surviv-i'. Dependi doesn't mean pendi de and reprezenti doesn't mean ree prezenti. So that survivi might be parsed as sur+vivi is not necessarily an objection.

The history of Esperanto is littered with experiments in word construction. Sometimes they survive and are adopted universally and sometimes not.

We will have to wait and see whether 'transdaŭri' transdaŭros the experimental period.

kaŝperanto (Pokaż profil) 7 kwietnia 2014, 14:17:35

Gosudar:The main reason that Esperanto is so very difficult to learn, the reason that there are so may eternaj komencantoj, the reason most people simply give up in frustration, is the impossibility of penetrating the mystery of compound words.

For example, what does "transdaŭri" mean in English?
As usual, sudanglo has already provided a detailed solution to your question.
However, I would add that you should forget about the idea of translating compound words into English. Many times we have no single word for the same concept, or English may have too precise a meaning (or too imprecise) to justify the translation. I agree with the "daŭri trans" interpretation, which is roughly the same as "survive". I'd say "made it through" is a decent representation. The only time I have a lot of trouble with compound words is when more than two roots are used or when the application order and scope of prefixes and suffixes is ambiguous.

Mustelvulpo (Pokaż profil) 7 kwietnia 2014, 19:13:41

"La arkivo transdaŭris la duan mondmiliton" - how would the meaning change if "tradaŭris" was used?

morfran (Pokaż profil) 7 kwietnia 2014, 19:30:17

Mustelvulpo:"La arkivo transdaŭris la duan mondmiliton" - how would the meaning change if "tradaŭris" was used?
It would mean that the archives lasted through the war, but not necessarily after it, much like transvivi “to outlive, outlast” and travivi “to live through”.

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