Al la enhavo

A litany of other questions

de ASCarroll, 2014-majo-01

Mesaĝoj: 228

Lingvo: English

ASCarroll (Montri la profilon) 2014-majo-01 21:13:37

I think I'm making fair progress between this website, Sinjoro Harlow's, Wiktionary, and the Fundamento. But I still have several more questions that have come up.

1. I'm now resigned to the sad fact that Esperanto does have grammatical gender after all, and just calls it "root class" instead. But where can I find a dictionary that will give class as well as meaning?
2. How about for verb transitivity? It doesn't do me much good to know a word if I don't know how to use it correctly.
3. Why does Esperanto even have distinct transitive/intransitive verbs anyway? It seems a better system would have been to make all verbs transitive (or intransitive, whatever) and mandated the proper suffix (-ig- or -iĝ-) to change it. Can someone feasibly just do it that way? Always say boliĝi instead of just boli?
4. Where can I find all of the particles that don't fall under any definite part of speech, like ajn and stuff? I don't think I have a complete list yet.
5. I get that the style of Esperanto I've decided to make my own will most likely catch me a good bit of flak. Saying homino instead of virino and using the neologisms gi, -unt-, -ut-, -iĉ-, -uk-, na, graŭ, cit, far, and malantaŭ I mean. I get that it's somewhat discouraged overall, but is it just discouraged or would it actually keep people from understanding what I'm talking about?
6. Where can I find the more technical/scientific/medical neologisms like -oz- and such?

RiotNrrd (Montri la profilon) 2014-majo-01 22:13:01

ASCarroll:... but is it just discouraged or would it actually keep people from understanding what I'm talking about?
It wouldraz arnle people too fange. If ren wantsung to yebblow, fornats. Don't you poovit?

Understand?

ASCarroll (Montri la profilon) 2014-majo-01 22:29:16

I'm not sure I was clear enough about that part. Mia esperanto ankoraŭ estas esperanto. La diferencoj estas malgrandaj. Mi nur ne uzas la vortoj viro kaj virino. Mi anstataŭe uzas la vorto homo kaj la sufiksoj -in- kaj -iĉ-*. Vi diras la vorto virino. Mi diras la vorto homino. It's not that different, really. At least to me, anyway. As far as I'm aware, my only real break with the Fundamento is using the pronoun gi as an epicine, and even that's just because Zamenhof himself suggested ĝi, which I think would get pretty confusing when mixed with the current usage as just "it". People would be like "why are you calling people inanimate objects?!"

*I'm aware of the nepiĉo/ne piĉo issue. My solution is basically just to add piĉo to the list of words I'd rather not acknowledge/use.

Anyway, what about the other ones?

morfran (Montri la profilon) 2014-majo-01 23:43:48

Grammatical gender refers to categories of nouns, like Latin -us, -a, and -um nouns. Root class refers to the inherent part of speech of a root (noun, verb, etc.).

Most Esperanto-English dictionaries indicate the default part of speech of a root with a “/“, and transitivity with tr or ntr, e.g.:

PIV:abdik/i (tr) 1 Formale demeti ĉiujn rajtojn pri reĝeco, imperiestreco ks.
abdik- is the root, i is the default part of speech, tr indicates a transitive verb.

English-Esperanto dictionaries, however, can’t do that, since the Esperanto word is simply translating the English one, and might not be in its “default” state.

I’m not sure making all verbs either transitive or intransitive would work the way you want; if esti only appeared as estigi (“to cause to be”) and estiĝi (“to come to be”), that wouldn’t leave much room for “to be”, for example.

As for the intelligibility of some of the neologisms, bear in mind that many of them are not in the usual dictionaries, so you’ll be better off using them with an audience you already know is neologism-savvy and not prone to hissy fits (which, of course, rules out most forums).

Many books I’ve read in Esperanto introduce new words, and some include a glossary. If you have a blog in Esperanto, for example, that might be a good place to experiment with neologisms. Anywhere else is likely to get you ganked.

By the way, malantaŭ is not a neologism. okulumo.gif

You can find a bunch of unofficial affixes in the PMEG.

erinja (Montri la profilon) 2014-majo-02 00:15:06

ASCarroll:5. I get that the style of Esperanto I've decided to make my own will most likely catch me a good bit of flak. Saying homino instead of virino and using the neologisms gi, -unt-, -ut-, -iĉ-, -uk-, na, graŭ, cit, far, and malantaŭ I mean. I get that it's somewhat discouraged overall, but is it just discouraged or would it actually keep people from understanding what I'm talking about?
I've been heavily involved with Esperanto for a long time and every time I think I have a handle on all of the proposed reforms or new words for basic things, someone proves me wrong. You just proved me wrong. I don't know all of the things on your list, so for some of them, I would surely be confused and not sure what you mean.

I'm also not sure what you mean by including "malantaŭ". It's a perfectly good word used by normal esperanto speakers. Is there some weird way that you were planning on using it? I also use "ĝi" to refer to babies all the time, and I use "it" in English for this same use. No one has ever gotten upset with me for calling a person an "inanimate object".

In other news, I think you missed a couple of neologisms from your list. If you want to be annoyingly radical in your use of Esperanto, as seems to be your goal, surely you should use all of the major reform proposals, so I suggest including -iv- and ri. You'll find a long list of helpful affixes here. Have fun!

ASCarroll (Montri la profilon) 2014-majo-02 00:52:06

erinja:I've been heavily involved with Esperanto for a long time and every time I think I have a handle on all of the proposed reforms or new words for basic things, someone proves me wrong. You just proved me wrong. I don't know all of the things on your list, so for some of them, I would surely be confused and not sure what you mean.

I'm also not sure what you mean by including "malantaŭ". It's a perfectly good word used by normal esperanto speakers. Is there some weird way that you were planning on using it? I also use "ĝi" to refer to babies all the time, and I use "it" in English for this same use. No one has ever gotten upset with me for calling a person an "inanimate object".

In other news, I think you missed a couple of neologisms from your list. If you want to be annoyingly radical in your use of Esperanto, as seems to be your goal, surely you should use all of the major reform proposals, so I suggest including -iv- and ri. You'll find a long list of helpful affixes here. Have fun!
1. I mostly just got that list off of Sinjoro Harlow's site or Wiktionary.
The -unt- and -ut- ones were subjunctive participles, matching the use of the others.
-iĉ- has already been well discussed, including a four or five page digression on my first question into why I became a feminist fanatic, liar, and perdita herezulo who would stop at nothing to destroy La Sankta Fundamento as soon as I discovered it.
-uk- was allegedly a back-formation from eŭnuko or something. It seemed reasonable for someone with a somewhat strong agricultural background to need.
Graŭ supposedly means something along the lines of "in accordance with" as a back-formation from malgraŭ.
Gi seemed like a good compromise for ĝi as an epicine. I'd probably just stick to ĝi instead if your usage really is common. No sense in further alienating/offending the majority of the community over something as small as a circumflex, you know?
Na seems to work well within the rules as a way to mark something as accusative when it can't reasonably take -n.
I just saw far used to mean "by" (as in an author) on here earlier today, and apparently cit works in the same vein to introduce a quotation.
I just included the ones that made sense to me and seemed to fill semantic holes. I know about -iv- from Sinjoro Harlow's site, but it seems redundant with -iĝ- and ri seems basically pointless since the space is already covered by ĝi/gi.

2. I had an idea question five would become the central focus of the thread. Figured it'd be worth a shot though, at least to further gauge the overall level of hostility on the boards to newer usages or coinages since the 19th century.

3. Dankon, morfran, for answering 1 and 2. ridulo.gif

novatago (Montri la profilon) 2014-majo-02 01:10:20

I think it's easier to you to quit. Or you understand that esperanto is a language, not your language, or you better quit. Better for you, better for us. I actually don't understand where is the dificult part to understand in “is a language”.

Since it's obvious you don't like Esperanto, here you are: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Constructed... Look for one you like and be happy.

Ĝis, Novatago.

ASCarroll (Montri la profilon) 2014-majo-02 01:15:24

novatago:I think it's easier to you to quit. Or you understand that esperanto is a language, not your language, or you better quit. Better for you, better for us. I actually don't understand where is the dificult part to understand in “is a language”.

Since it's obvious you don't like Esperanto, here you are: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Constructed... Look for one you like and be happy.
Actually, I didn't come up with any of those. My sources, besides this site, were:
http://www.esperanto-usa.org/posters/Affixes.pdf
http://donh.best.vwh.net/Esperanto/affixes.html
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Esperanto_s...

I like the language itself. I like the ideas behind it. I don't really care for certain aspects of what I've seen but it's k. Every day is a learning experience. Anyway... about that learning...

erinja (Montri la profilon) 2014-majo-02 02:13:36

Also, root class is not like gender, unless you consider English to be gendered because you need to learn that "dog" is primarily a noun (but it can also be used as a verb), or that "compute" is primarily a verb, from which we form the word "computor", a noun.

Is it hard to remember that "dog" is a noun? Likewise, it isn't hard to remember that "hundo" is a noun root in Esperanto. Most words in Esperanto have an obviuos root type. There are only a few that you will need to memorize. And I'm sure you've had similar cases in English, where you sit around trying to figure out, what form of a word you might want. It isn't always obvious how a noun in English should be turned into a verb or vice versa.

Same deal with transitivity. Transitivity for most verbs is obvious (fari, dormi, etc). For a few that it isn't obvious, you can do it by memorizing the definition of the verb (so "to boil", "boli" - to reach a temperature of 100 degrees C. Aha. Yes. Intransitive).

You're trolling with the language reforms, right? You knew that the reaction wouldn't be helpful and supportive to that one, right? (Btw people are marginally more receptive if you post that stuff in the Esperanto forums, because at least they can see that you've gone to the trouble to write out your ideas in Esperanto, so you're making a modicum of effort to be understood)

novatago (Montri la profilon) 2014-majo-02 02:17:03

ASCarroll:Actually, I didn't come up with any of those. My sources, besides this site, were:
http://www.esperanto-usa.org/posters/Affixes.pdf
I don't see unoficial things or unofficial gender suffixes in there.
ASCarroll:http://donh.best.vwh.net/Esperanto/affixes.html
There are unofficial suffixes in there. Many of them unworthy. But none of them change the grammar (as a quick look have let me know).

Anyway you still have to learn distinguish between suffixes that change the grammar, and suffixes that complement the vocabulary. Simple ideas that make the difference.

ASCarroll:http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Esperanto_s...
A wiki people like you can edit. Really? ¬¬

ASCarroll:I like the language itself. I like the ideas behind it. I don't really care for the rigid/intolerant/ultrastrict mindset but it's k.
This is actually something you have to realize you don't. Your questions show that. You have seen others trying mess with the language and you think that's normal. Well, it's not. You can still learn it, and use it, but you just can't not do whatever you want, the same you can't with any other language. It's a childish thing to act like “I like the language but I don't like how it is, so I going to choose how to speak it, and if nobody understands me, the others are wrong, not me” -> you don't like the language and you don't understand the ideas behind.

And maybe you should change your way to ask questions. I think it's not a good idea to ask like "My esperanto is not like Esperanto. Why?”. Better like this “I don't understand how transitivity works and why it's really needed”.

By the way, the thing with esperanto having gender is that you misunderstood something or someone explained it wrongly to you. It has gender in some words. AND F::K, THAT'S NEEDED! AND THE SAME TRANSITIVITY AND INTRANSITIVITY! which if you know well the meaning/s of a root, more than probably you'll know how to use it.

Ĝis, Novatago.

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