Bemused:The "legacy code" with all it's exceptions would be undisturbed, but bypassed by a new subroutine with no exceptions that users could choose to use or not.

I was this close to resorting to interpretive dance to explain again how that works. Wish I had thought of your code analogy before.

Not that it would have helped in this forum.

morfran:

efilzeo:Do you have a link? I wanna see if I've been that bad.

Hmm. Just finished skimming through that thread, and I see now that I’ve conflated the inexplicable rage in Novatago’s posts with the Borat-like assumptions of homosexuality in yours.

Not sure how that happened, but I should slap on some orthopedic shoes, because I stand corrected.

lulz, no worries.

Made in honour of this thread and that other one. Yes, I know "amikoj" is regarded as neutral nowadays, but...


Please forgive mistakes! Feel free to correct them too if you like (I spotted a couple just after uploading... reformemajn spertulojn?).

(And because this is the English forum:
So I just follow the Fundamento and I'll be able to speak well?
Yes, it's an easily learnable language!
Just don't mention the accusative..
But my friends aren't men! You're female and my friend, right? Right?
... But in his voice "friends" sounds like "gay friends"
Shouldn't we change this? In modern international culture, this small change...
Impudent beginner! Get back to school!
It's fine! Every beginner wants to reform the language, but afterwards they become experts who hate reform!
Please don't look at the expert reformers behind the wall...)

Cheers!

nornen:

I agree with you on both points. However, considering the -icx- that started this whole issue, I fail to see how -icx- affects the grammar (morphology, syntax and phonology). As I see it, it affects the lexicon and that's it. Please explain what the difference between introducing forum' and icx' is?

The only way -icx- can be introduced as an addition and not a vector for change (more on this below) is to allow its use only with words that are inherently feminine (Amazon' (wait.....are there male Amazons??), hetajr', furi', muz', nimf' etc) to denote the male counterpart. THIS would bring the much-vaunted (and I suspect red herring) "symmetry".
Anyway, -icx- will be a vector for change because it will eventually do to patro, frato et al the same thing that has happened to amiko et al, i.e. the root will take on the epicene meaning and the Fundamento makes this impossible with patro etc.

Bemused:

AllenHartwell: But that doesn't mean that anyone else will necessarily understand you, nor does it mean that they aren't just as free to mock you for saying nepicxo all the time.

Please stop trying to muddy the waters by making false assertions about the use of icx.

It has been explained many times on this forum that the existing male based words would remain untouched and that new synonymns conforming to the icx standard would be introduced.

For example, patro would continue to mean father, genotoricxo would also mean father, and genitoro would mean parent.

The word nepo would continue to mean nephew, a new word using the icx standard, "X-icxo" would be introduced to also mean nephew, and a neutral form "X" would mean "neice or nephew".

Oh, yeah! Let's just introduce needless same-meaning words for EVERY root that somebody, somewhere doesn't like for whatever reason! I'm sure hat will go over well.
All thy scheme above does is needlessly increase the vocabulary burden on new learners, something which is diametrically opposed to the raison d'etre of Esperanto's word building system in the first place.

morfran:...the Lernu forum could have simply said “No, thanks”...

"The Lernu forum" could not have said any such thing. "The Lernu forum" is not an individual. "The Lernu forum" does not have a single voice.

I've been seeing you take this position for a little while now - that "the Lernu forum" does this or says that or whatever, as if it is a unitary, monolithic thing. I find this extremely curious. You seem to be conflating the actions of a few individuals with the ENTIRE FORUM! Everyone here (except you, of course, and maybe a few other recent additions) is to blame for being so mean to the noobs, because Novatago didn't realize he was coming off as strongly to one guy as he was, due to his poor command of English. Right.

Nevertheless, you just don't want to seem to let go of this one incident, even though I haven't seen you propose any solutions to the problem that you identify: what can WE do, as a group of individuals, that will guarantee that no individual here will ever come on too strongly to a noob? How will we make sure that no one will ever insult a noob again? How do we make sure that everyone here is perfectly nice and friendly to everyone, all the time?

How do we do that? I am looking forward to the answer, because the rest of the internet seems to have the same problem of controlling the posts of individuals that we have here. I'm sure your practical solution will be very illuminating.

If your answer is "well... everyone should just be nicer to each other", well, yeah, sure, a noble goal and all, just how long have you been on the internet? Or are you proposing that erinja ban anyone whose actions you don't like? I mean, what? Here you have the chance to solve a problem that has been vexing the entire internet for a couple of decades now. Please... tell us. What concrete actions should we take to insure across-the-board niceness amongst ALL posters to the forum? Because obviously we are not meeting your expectations.

RiotNrrd:If your answer is "well... everyone should just be nicer to each other", well, yeah, sure, a noble goal and all, just how long have you been on the internet? Or are you proposing that erinja ban anyone whose actions you don't like? I mean, what? Here you have the chance to solve a problem that has been vexing the entire internet for a couple of decades now. Please... tell us. What concrete actions should we take to insure across-the-board niceness amongst ALL posters to the forum? Because obviously we are not meeting your expectations.

Well, if you agree that it is a noble and worthy goal that we all be nicer to each other - and I would certainly say that it is - then a good start would be for each of us to ensure we do so on an individual level, and hope that the ethos becomes contagious. I've seen this be effective on small online communities - a dedicated effort to be kind and positive is adopted, at first consciously or even begrudgingly by some, that gradually spreads to make almost everyone happier.

I think it's a bit unfair to critisize morfan for conflating lernu with a few individuals, then turn around and question his reasoning by conflating lernu with "the Internet". Yes, there are random visiting trolls everywhere, but in terms of regular members and the usual manner of the discourse, there are plenty of online communities where hostility and condescencion are not simply assumed to be present, and indeed rare. And of course, there are others where vitriol is the universal language. It's no more fair to blame "the Internet" than to say "well, that's just human nature". And if it is, we might as well start with ourselves to change it.

Eltwish:I think it's a bit unfair to critisize morfan for conflating lernu with a few individuals, then turn around and question his reasoning by conflating lernu with "the Internet".

I'm not conflating Lernu with the internet. I'm saying the Lernu forum has the same problem that all open, public forums on the internet have - anyone can come in here and say anything. We can clean up afterwards, by banning people, by deleting messages, things of that nature, but we cannot control what anyone posts in the first place. Morfran is just beating a one note drum, the Lernu forum was mean, I can't believe the Lernu forum was mean, the Lernu forum said really mean things, the Lernu forum needs to stop being mean, etc.

We can't. We don't control who comes here. If what they post is really egregious, sure, they'll get tossed. But most people can say what they want, and you are free to tell them to be nicer, and they are free to ignore you. That is how it is. Crying about it doesn't change it. The crying just gets old after a while.

That's fair, and you're right, nothing can be done about random people who come in and say mean things. But I'm talking about regular memebers - the actual core of the community. It's not unreasonable to speak of the general ethos of "the lernu community", though one has to be careful not to overgeneralize. And "crying about it" is a pretty pessimistic description of "trying to tactfully bring it to people's attention that they are coming off as rude" or "encouraging people to be more warm than they might otherwise be for the benefit of the community and to welcome newcomers." As an example, novatago admitted he didn't know he was coming off as meanly harsh to ASCarroll, and one might optimistically assume that now he will be more careful not to use similar language in such situations. If so, "crying about it" turned out to be effective, bit by bit.

@oreso
What's worse than any greenhorn-komencanto? Right: Someone who complains about them but fails to realize that he/she is greener than all of them.