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Fermi la vortaro/Closing the Dictionary

di AllenHartwell, 28 maggio 2014

Messaggi: 28

Lingua: English

robbkvasnak (Mostra il profilo) 29 maggio 2014 21:55:36

Since Esperanto is not governed by any one single body but rather by the consensus of its speakers, the whole question of whether to shut the dictionary, so to speak, is mute. If most speakers use a word or combinations of words or new meanings of existing words, then that lexem establishes itself as bone fide Esperanto. Some examples: krokodili, necesejo, komputilo and vinduso. Where I am studying culinary arts, I have just picked up the expression jicama (in American English). Until I learned about using jicamas, I saw them at the grocery but never noticed them. I had no word for them and no concept. Now I ask for jicamas and I have discovered that even the employees who put them into the shelves are sometimes baffled by what I am looking for.
Thus it is with language. Heidegger once wrote: Sprache ist das Haus des Seins (language is the house of being/exsistence). As we expand our house, we add on to the language. Esperanto certainly has space for a guest room!

AllenHartwell (Mostra il profilo) 29 maggio 2014 22:01:39

robbkvasnak:Since Esperanto is not governed by any one single body
http://www.akademio-de-esperanto.org/ ridulo.gif

robbkvasnak (Mostra il profilo) 30 maggio 2014 02:40:37

Allen, I don't know how long you have been reading and communicating in Esperanto, but if it hasn't been for a long time, let me tell you that the akademio sometimes squeaks but it is not heard that loudly. General usage is more important for the actual written and spoken language.

Fenris_kcf (Mostra il profilo) 30 maggio 2014 07:52:24

AllenHartwell:
robbkvasnak:Since Esperanto is not governed by any one single body
http://www.akademio-de-esperanto.org/ ridulo.gif
I already told you in the other thread:
Ludwik Lejzer Zamenhof:Lingvo internacia, kiel ĉiu nacia, estas propraĵo de ĉiuj; la aŭtoro forlasas por ĉiam ĉiujn personajn rajtojn al ĝi.

bartlett22183 (Mostra il profilo) 30 maggio 2014 20:28:40

I suggest that as in many endeavors of human life, it is a matter of discretion and judgment. Yes, during the history of E-o there have been assimilated numerous roots beyond those in the Fundamento and the Unua Libro. That is so. At the same time, I think that as a matter of prudence it is fitting not to introduce new roots without genuine need.

At one time I was often discomfited by what I considered "conglomerated words," words composed of so many elements that they became puzzles to be decrypted rather than obvious new words. However, I came to realize that those "conglomerated words" did have an internal logic, and as such they were no worse than adopted words which I would have to learn all by themselves -- unless, of course malgajo.gif malgajo.gif those adopted words were structurally similar to cognates in my denaska lingvo. (In other words, allegedly "international" -- but are they really? -- forms similar to corresponding English words.)

Yes, under one of the rules of the "Sixteen Rules" it might be suitable to adopt or adapt words from Greek or Latin to correspond to the so-called International Scientific Vocabulary ("ISV" ), but for many day to day matters, I suggest that it is suitable to compound words from existing roots when possible, even if at first those compounds might not be immediately apparent to everyone, and even if, yes, on occasion, those compounds might seem idiomatic. Which is worse, to learn a compound from existing roots, with a sort of internal logic, or to learn a whole new word?

(This position is distinguishable from what I held a number of years ago.)

RiotNrrd (Mostra il profilo) 31 maggio 2014 02:58:34

New words always fall into one of three areas.

A new idea comes along, and the new Esperanto combination is...

1. ... short and to the point. No neologism needed. No one really argues about these.

2... long and hard to say. "This word has seven syllables, two "kv" combinations, an "sc", and one stretch with more consecutive consonants than you'd ever expect. Sure, it's *possible* to pronounce, with practice, but..."

Neologisms spring up here like dandelions. Even so, no one really argues about these, either.

3. ... squarely in the middle, grey area. This is where ALL the fun lies. You can get six, seven, eight pages of no-resolution forum arguments for a single word out of these, sometimes a couple of times if you space it out and let people forget. ridulo.gif

---

I think that generally, the way we've been doing it has worked well. New roots do enter the language (old ones sometimes drop out, too), but not at an alarming pace, and they generally seem to make sense.

It's never any one persons choice, anyway. These things seem to happen in a very organic fashion. People didn't like "komputero", so now we say "komputilo" - who precisely decided that? No one. Everyone. Certainly not the Akademio. That just seems to be how it works.

nornen (Mostra il profilo) 31 maggio 2014 07:52:30

jean-luc:I find funny that the example used for saying there is no need of new roots is a word which should have beed a new root: terpomo ne estas pomo.
What would you propose? Patato maybe or kartoflo?

AllenHartwell (Mostra il profilo) 31 maggio 2014 08:20:23

Maybe pomo doesn't necessarily only refer to apples but to any edible plant with a natural, possibly thick skin and a fleshy inside? This description fits both quite well IMO.

sudanglo (Mostra il profilo) 31 maggio 2014 10:15:37

vinduso
Don't you mean Vindozo, Rob? Or does vinduso refer to something else?
according to §15 of the Fundamento Gramatiko an internationalism is automatically part of the Esperanto lexicon
This has become a whole lot easier now that English is the de facto international language. Kuul! Ĉu ne?

Fenris_kcf (Mostra il profilo) 31 maggio 2014 18:23:20

sudanglo:
vinduso
Don't you mean Vindozo, Rob? Or does vinduso refer to something else?
C'mon, don't spread such neologisms!
One could follow the etymology of "window" to the old Norse "vindauga", which means nothing but "windeye".
So let's use "Ventokulo"! From the famous company "Malgrandegmola"!

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