Mesaĝoj: 34
Lingvo: English
sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2014-junio-29 09:31:19
My impression is that any comparison between the ease of acquistion of Esperanto and the ease of acquisition of a national language (for adults learning the language as a second language) will be greatly affected by the levels at which competence is being compared.
In the beginning, for very obvious reasons, speed of progress in Esperanto will compare very favourably with that of a national language.
However the higher the level of communicative competence that is being compared the less the disparity between Esperanto and the national language. Again for very obvious reasons.
Once the basics have been mastered in a national language (though this may take some considerable time) the opportunities for polishing one's skills are abundant.
Viewing TV programmes (easy peasy with a satellite dish or Internet connection) which show the language in social discourse (as in other registers), or visiting a country where the language is spoken, will almost effortlessly add to the advanced student's competence.
None of this is available for the student of Esperanto, who may have to flounder around just to decide what the best word is for very mundane everyday matters, and be completely at sea in the matter of social discourse, as the language is not spoken anywhere for normal daily living.
The second big advantage of using Esperanto for international communication (over the first advantage of simplicity of grammar, pronunciation and basic vocab) is that Esperantists are all in the same boat and are not confronted with the almost insuperable barrier (in the case of a national language) between the native speaker and the foreign learner.
In the beginning, for very obvious reasons, speed of progress in Esperanto will compare very favourably with that of a national language.
However the higher the level of communicative competence that is being compared the less the disparity between Esperanto and the national language. Again for very obvious reasons.
Once the basics have been mastered in a national language (though this may take some considerable time) the opportunities for polishing one's skills are abundant.
Viewing TV programmes (easy peasy with a satellite dish or Internet connection) which show the language in social discourse (as in other registers), or visiting a country where the language is spoken, will almost effortlessly add to the advanced student's competence.
None of this is available for the student of Esperanto, who may have to flounder around just to decide what the best word is for very mundane everyday matters, and be completely at sea in the matter of social discourse, as the language is not spoken anywhere for normal daily living.
The second big advantage of using Esperanto for international communication (over the first advantage of simplicity of grammar, pronunciation and basic vocab) is that Esperantists are all in the same boat and are not confronted with the almost insuperable barrier (in the case of a national language) between the native speaker and the foreign learner.
morico (Montri la profilon) 2014-junio-29 13:07:30
"Les sacrifices que fera tout homme de notre monde européen en consacrant quelques temps à l'étude de l'espéranto sont tellement petits, et les résultats qui peuvent en découler tellement immenses, qu'on ne peut pas se refuser à faire cet essai."
(Léon TOLSTOÏ (1828 - 1910), écrivain russe)
"On peut affirmer avec une certitude absolue que l'espéranto est de huit à dix fois plus facile que n'importe quelle langue étrangère et qu'il est possible d'acquérir une parfaite élocution sans quitter son propre pays. Ceci est en soi un résultat très appréciable."
(Inazo NITOBE (1862 - 1933) scientifique, membre de l'Académie Impériale du Japon. "Esperanto as an International Language" (1922), rapport réalisé en tant que Sous-Secrétaire Général de la Société des Nations)
(Léon TOLSTOÏ (1828 - 1910), écrivain russe)
"On peut affirmer avec une certitude absolue que l'espéranto est de huit à dix fois plus facile que n'importe quelle langue étrangère et qu'il est possible d'acquérir une parfaite élocution sans quitter son propre pays. Ceci est en soi un résultat très appréciable."
(Inazo NITOBE (1862 - 1933) scientifique, membre de l'Académie Impériale du Japon. "Esperanto as an International Language" (1922), rapport réalisé en tant que Sous-Secrétaire Général de la Société des Nations)
robbkvasnak (Montri la profilon) 2014-junio-29 16:14:34
morico:"Les sacrifices que fera tout homme de notre monde européen en consacrant quelques temps à l'étude de l'espéranto sont tellement petits, et les résultats qui peuvent en découler tellement immenses, qu'on ne peut pas se refuser à faire cet essai."Morico, here is my humble translation of what you added (before the inevitable conversation about writing in the specific language of a forum breaks out, hehe)
(Léon TOLSTOÏ (1828 - 1910), écrivain russe)
"On peut affirmer avec une certitude absolue que l'espéranto est de huit à dix fois plus facile que n'importe quelle langue étrangère et qu'il est possible d'acquérir une parfaite élocution sans quitter son propre pays. Ceci est en soi un résultat très appréciable."
(Inazo NITOBE (1862 - 1933) scientifique, membre de l'Académie Impériale du Japon. "Esperanto as an International Language" (1922), rapport réalisé en tant que Sous-Secrétaire Général de la Société des Nations)
The sacrifices that everyone in our European world will make in dedicating some time to the study of Esperanto are so small, and the results which can be derived from it so immense, that no one can refuse to make this attempt. (Leon TOLSTOY (1828-1910), Russian author)
One can affirm with absolute certainty that Esperanto is from eight to ten time easier than any foreign language and that it is possible to acquire perfect diction without leaving one's own country. This is in and of itself a very substantial [meaningful] result. (Inazo NITOBE (1862-1933) scientist, member of the Japanese Imperial Academy. "Esperanto as an International Language" (19220, a report carried out during his tenure as Vice Secretary General of the League of Nations)
I would like to add that these are very valid and worthwhile quotes but that I at the same time find Kiril's quest for more epistological statements extremely necessary and meaningful in the contexts in which we must plead for the introduction of Esperanto as a school subject. Indeed, just the names of those whom you have quoted should move some politicians to take heed but in our age of "post-enlightenment" (sometime here in the USA I think we live in an age of counter-enlightenment, i.e. malklerigo) quantitative facts speak louder than opinions internationally - supposedly - though I often see that (shudder) religious dogma and blindness often prevail. It is too bad that the bible or coran or some such "holy" text doesn't have a plea for an international language with which we could compare Esperanto.
Bemused (Montri la profilon) 2014-junio-30 08:22:30
robbkvasnak:Robb you could be onto something here.
in our age of "post-enlightenment" (sometime here in the USA I think we live in an age of counter-enlightenment, i.e. malklerigo) quantitative facts speak louder than opinions internationally - supposedly - though I often see that (shudder) religious dogma and blindness often prevail. It is too bad that the bible or coran or some such "holy" text doesn't have a plea for an international language with which we could compare Esperanto.
*Tongue firmly in cheek*
Did not the dead sea scrolls V.2 add an 11'th commandment, "Thou shalt speak with one voice."?
Then again it would probably start a holy war as the supporters of various languages claim that theirs is "The Chosen Language"
sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2014-julio-02 12:08:17
It seems certainly feasible to quantify the relative ease of learning Esperanto when the measures are of the type that might be used for assessing the progress in a foreign language in the first five years in school. However at the higher levels it becomes like comparing chalk with cheese.
The natural reference at the higher levels with the national languages is to the competence of native speakers. Can the learner communicate effectively with the native speaker and understand the subtleties of his usage.
Comparing a student of Esperanto's command of the language with that of an experienced Esperantist is not the same thing at all, though in itself, may be a valid measure of the student's progress in the language.
But, and it is quite a big but, the areas of language competence of the experienced Esperantist are quite different to the language competence of the native speaker of a national language.
The natural reference at the higher levels with the national languages is to the competence of native speakers. Can the learner communicate effectively with the native speaker and understand the subtleties of his usage.
Comparing a student of Esperanto's command of the language with that of an experienced Esperantist is not the same thing at all, though in itself, may be a valid measure of the student's progress in the language.
But, and it is quite a big but, the areas of language competence of the experienced Esperantist are quite different to the language competence of the native speaker of a national language.
Altebrilas (Montri la profilon) 2014-julio-02 21:02:44
@Robb
Hi, I downloades your thesis too, and have found it very interesting. I have a 14 year son who is very motivated to learn english, less to learn german and not at all for esperanto. Did you draw any conclusion about the perception of esperantist community by potential learners and willingness to belong to it?
Hi, I downloades your thesis too, and have found it very interesting. I have a 14 year son who is very motivated to learn english, less to learn german and not at all for esperanto. Did you draw any conclusion about the perception of esperantist community by potential learners and willingness to belong to it?
robbkvasnak (Montri la profilon) 2014-julio-02 21:33:22
The most interesting finding was that those who really attained higher proficiency in English became more critical and disdaining of the local English-speaking community. From the interviews - I interviewed each subject twice: a first interview according to Kelly's repertory grid and then a second interview in which I presented the interviewees with the gobal findings from the first set of interviews - I learned that my subjects had little or no knowledge of American culture and mores. They had acquired the functional use of English for communication without the pragmatics and thus were poor at communicating with native speakers. Many of them "reverted" or preferred to revert to the Hispanic community. In one case (this is annecdotal) a subject who had purchased a condo near the school where the classes were taught eventually gave up his job and took a new job about 60 km away because, as he put it, he could not work with the "anglos" (local jargon for people who speak English only). He was driving a total of 120 km a day just to be in a work environment where people spoke (and acted) Spanish. I would like to replicate this study in Miami or in Germany or in some other place to see what would I would find.
I know that some maintain that Esperanto does not have a culture (a general harp of the British media articles on Esperanto) but I believe that a specific "Esperanto culture" is contained in E learning materials and definitely expressed in E meetings - but this, too, is a subject for research.
As for your son, Altebrilas, probably the only thing that would interest him in Esperanto would be peers whom he admires but with whom he could only communicate in Esperanto.
I know that some maintain that Esperanto does not have a culture (a general harp of the British media articles on Esperanto) but I believe that a specific "Esperanto culture" is contained in E learning materials and definitely expressed in E meetings - but this, too, is a subject for research.
As for your son, Altebrilas, probably the only thing that would interest him in Esperanto would be peers whom he admires but with whom he could only communicate in Esperanto.
sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2014-julio-03 11:09:28
Although it is commonplace to assert that a language carries a culture, any issue of acceptance of the culture of a country can be clearly separated out from the issue of language competence.
Thus a native speaker of English from the UK might clearly find the culture of America not to his taste. So this then is not an issue of language competence, unless you argue that Americans and the English don't speak the same language.
The idea that Esperanto (the language) is a vehicle of a certain culture is probably much more associated with the phenomenon of the imbalance of types in the Esperanto speaking community, than anything else.
When the Esperanto speaking population becomes more representative of the population at large (instead of being dominated by leftie stranguloj and the socially marginalised) there should be no particular association between Esperanto and cultural values - except perhaps those in common in the developed world.
Actually, you could argue that any association between Esperanto and particular cultural values is bad news and a hindrance to its wider acceptance. The language is supposed to be culturally neutral - that's the point.
Thus a native speaker of English from the UK might clearly find the culture of America not to his taste. So this then is not an issue of language competence, unless you argue that Americans and the English don't speak the same language.
The idea that Esperanto (the language) is a vehicle of a certain culture is probably much more associated with the phenomenon of the imbalance of types in the Esperanto speaking community, than anything else.
When the Esperanto speaking population becomes more representative of the population at large (instead of being dominated by leftie stranguloj and the socially marginalised) there should be no particular association between Esperanto and cultural values - except perhaps those in common in the developed world.
Actually, you could argue that any association between Esperanto and particular cultural values is bad news and a hindrance to its wider acceptance. The language is supposed to be culturally neutral - that's the point.
robbkvasnak (Montri la profilon) 2014-julio-03 13:35:31
It is not a question of taste but a true misunderstanding (German: falsche Auslegung) of cultural norms. And, yes, I have met people from other English-speaking countries here who indeed have problems communicating with the locals and who are often exasperated by this. One of the most interesting cases is Andy Wagner, a local radio personality, whose accent is becoming decidedly more American as time goes by. He is probably not even aware of this. Others who live here cling to their accents and often as not mutter their dissatisfaction about life in SE Florida.
And Sudangulo is quite right in citing the "leftie stranguloj" culture of Esperantio. In general, those who speak Esperanto tend to be more culturally open and interested in other cultures than the general population. This is one prominent aspect of Esperanto culture. In fact, attitudes such as this are classified as "deep culture". Overt nationalism would be found to be very out of place at an Esperanto kunveno, just as open interest in the World Cup is totally out of place in the American "Tea Party".
BTW, what exactly does "to be completely at sea in the matter of" mean? I have never heard this expression and can imagine several different intentions in defining it.
And Sudangulo is quite right in citing the "leftie stranguloj" culture of Esperantio. In general, those who speak Esperanto tend to be more culturally open and interested in other cultures than the general population. This is one prominent aspect of Esperanto culture. In fact, attitudes such as this are classified as "deep culture". Overt nationalism would be found to be very out of place at an Esperanto kunveno, just as open interest in the World Cup is totally out of place in the American "Tea Party".
BTW, what exactly does "to be completely at sea in the matter of" mean? I have never heard this expression and can imagine several different intentions in defining it.
richardhall (Montri la profilon) 2014-julio-03 16:02:03
robbkvasnak:To be "all at sea" means to be confused, bewildered.
BTW, what exactly does "to be completely at sea in the matter of" mean? I have never heard this expression and can imagine several different intentions in defining it.