The Esperanto Teacher - Helen Fryer:

LESSON 33.

Antaŭ. Post.

"Antaŭ" means "before" (time), "Ni revenos antaŭ Mardo", We shall
return before Tuesday, "in front of" (place), "Antaŭ la domo", Before
the house. Before verbs "antaŭ ol" is used, as "Lavu vin, antaŭ ol
manĝi", Wash (yourself) before eating.

"Post" means "after" (time), "behind" (place).

Care must be taken in using "antaŭ" and "post" to arrange the sentence
so that there can be no doubt as to whether time or place is referred
to. "He came before his father," in place or position, "i.e.", in front
of his father, is "Li venis antaŭ sia patro", but if "before in time"
is meant, it must be "Li venis antaŭ ol lia patro" ("venis" ). "Li venis
post sia patro" means He came behind his father; if we mean "after his
father came" we may use "kiam", and say "Li venis post, kiam lia patro
venis".

This is a fragment from Helen Fryer's book, lesson 33 on Antaŭ & Post.

My question is on the use of Sia and Lia within the 4 bolded sentences.

If they all refer to his own father, should they all not have "sia patro"?

Can someone explain to me the logic of using "lia" in the 2nd and 4th sentences?

Thanks.

BoriQa:

The Esperanto Teacher - Helen Fryer:

LESSON 33.

Antaŭ. Post.

"Antaŭ" means "before" (time), "Ni revenos antaŭ Mardo", We shall
return before Tuesday, "in front of" (place), "Antaŭ la domo", Before
the house. Before verbs "antaŭ ol" is used, as "Lavu vin, antaŭ ol
manĝi", Wash (yourself) before eating.

"Post" means "after" (time), "behind" (place).

Care must be taken in using "antaŭ" and "post" to arrange the sentence
so that there can be no doubt as to whether time or place is referred
to. "He came before his father," in place or position, "i.e.", in front
of his father, is "Li venis antaŭ sia patro", but if "before in time"
is meant, it must be "Li venis antaŭ ol lia patro" ("venis" ). "Li venis
post sia patro" means He came behind his father; if we mean "after his
father came" we may use "kiam", and say "Li venis post, kiam lia patro
venis".

This is a fragment from Helen Fryer's book, lesson 33 on Antaŭ & Post.

My question is on the use of Sia and Lia within the 4 bolded sentences.

If they all refer to his own father, should they all not have "sia patro"?

Can someone explain to me the logic of using "lia" in the 2nd and 4th sentences?

Thanks.

"Si" can be used only when it and its antecedent (the noun it's referring to) are in the same clause. In both sentences this is not the case, though this is s bit hard to see in the first sentence. Li venis antaux ol venis lia patro has two verbs, hence two clauses. Same with the second sentence, though as I said it's much easier to see with the use of the relative "kiam". At least that would be my explanation.

Yes, orthohawk.

BTW: Fryer's rule to distinguish local and temporal antaŭ/post seems highly questionable to me, for me "Li venis antaŭ/post sia patro" is ambiguous, it can be local, temporal, or according to a ranking.

orthohawk:"Si" can be used only when it and its antecedent (the noun it's referring to) are in the same clause. In both sentences this is not the case, though this is s bit hard to see in the first sentence. Li venis antaux ol venis lia patro has two verbs, hence two clauses. Same with the second sentence, though as I said it's much easier to see with the use of the relative "kiam". At least that would be my explanation.

Thanks. That makes sense. I kind of figured that explanation was the case on the second sentence (the one with kiam), as the comma made it clear it was two clauses.

But I definitely couldn't see it on the first example.

So the two conjugated verbs in this sentence are the marker to the fact that there are two clauses, which takes care of my "si" doubt.

I guess a comma before antaŭ/post would have made it clearer.

Kirilo81:Fryer's rule to distinguish local and temporal antaŭ/post seems highly questionable to me, for me "Li venis antaŭ/post sia patro" is ambiguous, it can be local, temporal, or according to a ranking.

How would you make these sentences unambiguous? for each local, temporal, or according to a ranking, situations?

Thanks for the help.